in_nomine-digest Sunday, October 20 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2827 In this digest: RE: IN> New Discord Re: IN> New Discord IN> Discord (was Re: IN> Ignore this message) Batman (Was Re: IN> New Discord) Re: IN> IN1's Behind the Symphony. IN> Jean... (Re:[DAWN]) IN> Authors (Re: Personal Impressions of Superiors) Re: Batman (Was Re: IN> New Discord) IN> The Ring IN> Reverse Engineering of Fallen Angels ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 18:04:30 -0600 From: Julian Mensch Subject: RE: IN> New Discord << Maybe that Batman should have been a Balakite of Dark Humor IST the Media :D the true Datk Knight should definately be a Malakite of Fire. Maybe an Outcasted one. >> Maybe I'm soft, but I think the 60's Batman is a much more angelic character then the modern version; there's nothing 'Dark' in his Humor. Anyway, if I had to peg them, I'd go Malakite of Eli IST Children for the 60's Batman, Calabim of Nybbas for the Tim Burton version and Djinn of Beleth for the modern psychopath in the comics. (Ok, so sometimes he seems like a Malakite of Gabriel, depending who is writing him. But the modern comics-Batman is /not/ a nice guy.) - -- Julian Mensch ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 20:31:47 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> New Discord Maybe I'm soft, but I think the 60's Batman is a much more angelic character then the modern version; there's nothing 'Dark' in his Humor. Anyway, if I had to peg them, I'd go Malakite of Eli IST Children for the 60's Batman, Calabim of Nybbas for the Tim Burton version and Djinn of Beleth for the modern psychopath in the comics. (Ok, so sometimes he seems like a Malakite of Gabriel, depending who is writing him. But the modern comics-Batman is /not/ a nice guy.) - - Snip Hence servitor of Gabriel. Frankly, I'm not sure about Malakite, since we don't see much green fire, but definitely a servitor of Divine Fire, just in an obviously Dark setting. As for the 60's... oy. Batman shouldn't be IST Children... it just doesn't fit. Superman would fit more. I'm pretty game on calling him a Balseraph of Media who's set up to slowly erode faith in the ethereal, or otherwise force it to join with Hell. Tim Burton? Hmm... maybe about a Soldier. Joel Shumacher's movies are an obvious sign that Hell's gotten back into the game and that the Media is trying to take apart the modern Batman's (Yeah, going with Gabriel for this one) Role. Current comics and Batman Returns- bitter servitor of Divine Fire. Nightmares? Nah, if anything Joker is a servitor of Nightmares. Powerful one at that. Can't figure out which band. They all fit to a bit. Josh ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 07:25:05 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Discord (was Re: IN> Ignore this message) > Pin Drop (Celestial Discord) Now that's funny! But I can't see how it would be practical. Are you sure it isn't Kobol impersonating Asmodeus? ;) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 10:16:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher Anthony" Subject: Batman (Was Re: IN> New Discord) This is my opinion, and probably not worth the two cents it's printed on, but: I think this entire discussion has missed the point. *Batman is a hero, not a superhero.* He's not an angel, or a demon, of *anything*. He doesn't have any special powers. He can't take celestial form and go home when he doesn't feel like fighting anymore. Batman is, at his core, *human*. He's not even superhuman. He's just insanely skilled, obscenely wealthy, and occasionally really, really lucky. Now, Batman might have nine Forces* - but that's not because he's celestial, it's because he's one of those one-in-a-billion humans who actually has the potential for it. He's not a Soldier in service to anybody simply because it doesn't fit his modus operandi; he might work with the Justice League, but when push comes to shove, he doesn't take orders. Gabriel would probably love to have this guy on her team - except that Batman *doesn't* punish the cruel. He punishes lawbreakers and those who present a danger to society. Michael and Laurence would probably kill to get their hands on him - except that he a) knows when to cut his losses, b) doesn't take orders well, and c) would give both of them a dressing-down, if not worse, for killing someone anyway. He might seem like a decent Soldier of David, except that he does hit first a lot of the time. And working for demons? He'd rather die. So no, Batman's not a celestial. He's not even a Soldier. He's a guy who saw something he could do well, and decided to take that to extreme levels. - -EDG * Operating on the theory that new natural Forces are unlocked through stressful events (positive or negative): Force 1: Discovering the Batcave (and being attacked by bats) Force 2: Watching his parents get shot Force 3: The installation of the Batsignal Force 4: The death of Robin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 11:35:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN1's Behind the Symphony. At 2:18 PM -0600 10/14/02, Rampaging Crypto-Man wrote: [...] >Could someone please do writeups for each of these beings? [...] >Azrael >[...] before the Fall [...] Okay -- Whistling, you're good. Here I am going through my backlog of messages, and I see this bit, and my first instinct is to point out there were no Grigori _before_ the Fall. It took me >THIS< long to remember that Azrael is non-canonical in Choir/Band/whatever. And it's all your fault. O:> - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 12:11:36 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Jean... (Re:[DAWN]) At 2:03 PM -0400 10/15/02, William J. Keith wrote: >>that despite their "tiny cranial volumes" they still manage some occasional >>insight. [...] > >[...] That whole sentence irritates me as >well -- besides being far too spiteful toward humankind for an angel, there >are two other things that bother me about it. One is that cranial volume >doesn't matter in the slightest to an angel (ask a Kyriotate possessing a >mouse, or anyone in multidimensional Heaven), and the other is that it >sounds to me like a writer who didn't know science trying to sound >scientific(Jeanobabble? Eeeeew). If it was inherited from some bitingly >sarcastic version of Jean in the original INS/MV as the sterotypical Ivory >Tower elitist, it would fit that version -- but such a Jean doesn't seem to >be the current IN version. It's likely inherited. I need to translate (helloooo babelfish!) my INS/MV thing with him soon, to find out. As I altered the line slightly for GIN, some of it is potentially Elohite humor* -- and some of it is the fact that Jean is about the smartest person Jean knows, these days. (Yves is far _wiser_, but is he _smarter_? Maybe. Maybe not. And Raphael is gone.) He's smarter than nigh any individual human, he's smarter than all his Servitors, he's more balanced than most of the rabble on the Seraphim Council (since Raphael is gone)... He probably _doesn't_ think much of humans -- but he does his job, and when humans come up with things unaided by non-humans, well... That's part of the Symphony. (And he likes it, really; inspriation as the bolt of lightning and all that. But that doesn't mean he should try to _force_ the issue overmuch. That would be dissonant, getting high on Word-promotion that way...) He probably likes individual humans well enough (especially blessed souls, who can be taught and corrected in erronious thinking) -- but they're all so, well, SLOW. [cue the visual effects of lightning bolts, zot, zot.] >I pretty much ignore that entire sentence selectively, and hope that it >gets glossed over or repudiated in his extended writeup. I doubt that it will be either of those -- but it will be _explained_. (And yes, when humans achieve something, he gives them credit -- "occasionally they manage something" probably _is_ credit, in a soundbite like that... O:> ) Another thing about the line is that it does help make him a little more gray. Otherwise, he'd be UberKewl Technodude PerfectionGuy... And, oh yeah, the explanation for why Lightning gets Techie stuff (besides the connection via Electricity) is gonna be in there too, of course. O:> (* Perhaps one has to be an Elohite to appreciate Elohite humor.** When they get pokerfaced, though, suspect that they're up to something. At the least, they're so focused on something else that they've decided to drop emoting as a waste of their mental energies...) (** I'm not one, but I've been exposed to pretty good approximations...) - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 11:44:21 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Authors (Re: Personal Impressions of Superiors) At 12:09 AM -0400 10/15/02, William J. Keith wrote: > Vapula because I identify with him, dammit, so >kudos to whoever(s) wrote him. Everytime I read his extended writeup I get >a vague sense of sadness at how possible it all is, strongly flavored with >"there but for the grace of God go I." Good provocative writing. The original in-the-book is Derek's, which means it's probably strongly flavored by the INS/MV version. The extended writeup is Jo Ramsey (nee Hart), who also wrote GURPS Screampunk. (And Mammon, also in S4, IIRC.) It would probably make her happy to get Screampunk royalties. O;> - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 13:47:05 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: Batman (Was Re: IN> New Discord) >*Batman is a hero, not a superhero.* [snip entire excellent exposition with which I fully agree] Of course, with more than 5 Forces, he'll have at least the bare minimum of Soldier abilities: he'll be Symphonically aware and capable of Essence control (even if he doesn't know what Essence is -- "ki control" from his martial arts training would probably make sense to him). But anything else? Attunements, Songs? No, almost certainly not. Now, given the tendency of (super)heros to come back from the dead, in a century or so a Sainted Batman might not be all that unreasonable. Personally, I'd peg him with Dominic in an instant. Laws are good, yes, criminals are doing bad things, but ultimately the criminal is wrong because of the harm he inflicts on the fabric of society, and on individuals. Let Bruce Wayne employ his financial and social influence to change unjust laws; Batman operates outside the law because he seeks justice as best he knows how. (Litheroy affects a detective motif, but Dominic is more involved with Batman's area of operation.) A lot has been written about In Nomine and the superhero world settings. Batman, I think, turns a lot of that on its head, in a thought-provoking way. Even his villains are human -- Two-Face, Joker, etc. are intelligent, charismatic (well how *do* they get all those henchmen?) psychopaths, not metahumans. William ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 03:35:39 +0800 From: "Manny Nepomuceno" Subject: IN> The Ring This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C278B2.F1FDF760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (Rant up here, Spoilers down there.) (Digression: Incidentally, yes, Spirited Away was excellent. I picked = up the DVD some time ago, and I've been slapping my forehead at not recommending it to the list.) Rant: When I heard that The Ring had been remade by Hollywood I cringed. A = few months ago some friends and I went to watch the original Japanese = version in a local filmfest. (One of the advantages, I'd say, of living so close = to Japan...) It was the most terrifying movie any of us had ever seen, and we've seen a few really spooky ones. We liked it so much we stayed an = extra two hours to watch the sequel, and to this day we regret not watching = the prequel (The Ring 0) and the sort-of sequel (The Spiral). The bad reviews that the American version has gotten make me cringe. = Maybe it's a cultural thing, but I'm going to blindly put my money on = "Hollywood didn't get it." I'm going to have to do something really nasty to = Nybbas soon. It won't get here for a couple of months (if at all) but I'm not looking forward to seeing it. Oh, and in case I haven't said enough about it...watch the original. :) And if you have seen the original, join me below for some IN content and ideas about the film: Spoiler: Sadako. She scared the pants off me in both films. I've had a long = time to think about what she is. The closest thing I can think of is that she's a human who took an Oath = out of anger. The Force that attached itself was that of a Balseraph, most likely one of Nightmares. When she died (after thirty years! In that well!) her anger was so great it prevented her from going to Hell; she became a Ghost, giving up one Corporeal Force in exchange for a life of vengeance. Of course, that bit with the videotape and the television in the end I = can't explain... ;) Manny Neps http://www.geocities.com/angeloffools - ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C278B2.F1FDF760 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+Ii8TAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGAAcAAQAAAAAAAAEGgAMADgAAANIHCgAV AAMAIgAAAAEAHgEBA5AGAEAKAAApAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAAC ATEAAQAAABgAAAAAAAAAiC+/9ifTwUGmHd2hPg52WkSQIQADADYAAAAAAB4AcAABAAAACQAAAFRo ZSBSaW5nAAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAHCeG+dDk95dq3ax0c/obkwobxFl7YAAAIBHQwBAAAAHgAA AFNNVFA6REFSS05FU1NASS1NQU5JTEEuQ09NLlBIAAAACwABDgAAAABAAAYOAISGo294wgECAQoO AQAAABgAAAAAAAAAiC+/9ifTwUGmHd2hPg52WsKAAAADABQOAAAAAAsAHw4BAAAAAgEJEAEAAADx BQAA7QUAABgJAABMWkZ1dY5xFAMACgByY3BnMTI14jIDQ3RleAVBAQMB9/8KgAKkA+QHEwKAD/MA UARWPwhVB7IRJQ5RAwECAGNo4QrAc2V0MgYABsMRJfYzBEYTtzASLBEzCO8J97Y7GB8OMDURIgxg YwBQMwsJAWQzNhZQC6YgKIZSAHAFQHVwIGgEkORlLAYAcG8DEASQBCAoZG93A6B0HYIuKccKogqE CoAoRGkJwQQQAmkCIDogSW5jaacBAAIwB0BseR3AeQeQLR3CaQUQDrBkEMB3YZx5ICKQBCAOwGNl IVApIREuICCwICIAY2sHIlEdUR7BIERWRCAWcwNwJLB0B3EgYWeObx3AAHAiYEkndiSwLmIJ4SUA C2BwIgBuZ7wgbSKwAhAYIB2AYSJgcmEFQG5vBUAYIAWgbV8HgCYQJzIiMB6wbySDbK8EACOQHysd AjofOlcdgL8DoCPQJ+ELIB6xKDFUJKH+UicyE+AiYCaTGCAAwAEAmyaAIrBIBvAhYHdvBHDfI8EF ASdACYAjoUEnkAfR+wRgAjBoBCAlsSUEA1AIkH8mEDExJhIiwCERKZIikHQ/E9AkgwWwIBALgAdA IEr/JwAAcAeQJLAmYBQAIHEpYKUDoGEqAG9jNEFmAxDObTCgKjEjsChPNLAz0PZmJIMoAHYdESWw IbImQL0iYHMioB3ANzEqEHYnMr8lEC/QF7A00SmhNHMuOqD+KSOxBUAi0iSSBGAqMB6wawSQBoF5 JzNvOUAlkW7bIrA3MXUEIC3yZTUBJQD/CeEl5DLAJlI+QjWhMKIYIOchQiUAHfBvaz0xNLEjod5X KfIkIilxOZFtGtAzgH8ywCUAAZAhoCgRA6AOwXL9NbB0L3AdcAhhO1EzKhQQ+nEKUGwl5CmjBAAe YCKifySwGCAJwShEM0MnMiSScO8YIEVCHOAtZzA60EWjRPJ9F8EtNzFFJEjEIfIHQCl2Lh86LWJi KAEYIDzRd/c7UigxJJJBB4AFEDXwA6D/NQYT4AQgJcACQCaxAMAkIO8nYCSwL+QjoU0ioCaQKWHG JzExL9B1bHQIcDRBZ0YRJ0AdwGJ1BUAmQG1fT3FH0ymwAmALgGRAMXCXUuEncTDhZUCyICIvKPEp IGRuJwVAMCAFQCIw/C4iI7FTKhPgJmEpoR5wfyUDUmM/5jQwKjAisCmhTv9RIEzgBCAlEAIgI6I7 EQIg/1ZVHYInklGiCGALUDcTMOX+KAaQKCIhQTrQUtYoYhew/0CQJzInoSKQLOIxcQngKTT5S9tP aCXkNYE18DTRLJE/WAFWQjigIPAjAChgdWe/M4ABoAhgVqM6oDNPbCOh2jofK0FiEjdAeQhgV+T3 P0Mzqh3AalNhUDImkBew5wfgXEIlE0lOXJECMDLS/2IDAQAi4WQkJJI2Mit7bU//bl9vb3B/cY9y nx3lK3sGEOlGYGtvI6FTRPI18Bgh/0gEHREEIDcwXSFRQQOgBuD/HsA2I0ECJkMt8jWyR+IlcqlF 5G5rZBV3LSJzJKH/BABL3znDO9JHwy/BA5F6FJ83MUYxLRN7IVGDaHUDgu960CmxQIFDEk8oMDOA ZEK3NzEAcDAgciOhLWJGBbB/IzAtBCgwAZAT0EGjFBBszzdAOzQoMYESIEIHQBQQ/UOAcGHRO7NB ckAxQNE3IvJOIBBodADAIDFBEixS53siKSAiUShhAYASgUYR7wAgIrAhoBPxISOxHqIoMfsywCFQ ITrQHYGBNCLDOZH/CcEoMSlxSFFjASJCinIDUvVTSEgjQTt7EyaQNfAlgvwgR0PwKjAdwDQQOUMd UfuGAghQch3wP/KB9TWBIxH/E+AwEVw1KhAwoDciYwEwIP8AcCMwYPw3QFyhFAEdwC0T/mIpcQPw d+EkkjlAAQAocP8nADzyScQOsB4gOUA1NiSSfykBfWRWUQ7AC1M6oR86O5s60FEAbj0hB8Bwcx80 gYagdHA6Ly93nCB+LjAgNeAiMAiQQQAowS+/gUIXsAEgL4CEsB80fZ5wAAAAAwCSEAMAAAACARQ6 AQAAABAAAAAeQj2XnFMdRZxRrl4X+zsbAwDeP59OAAADAAlZAQAAAAMAQGUAAAAACwATgAggBgAA AAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAA4UAAAAAAAADABWACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAQhQAAAAAAAAMA G4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFKFAADjkAEAAwApgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAAYUA AAAAAAAeAECACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABUhQAAAQAAAAUAAAAxMC4wAAAAAAsAQYAIIAYA AAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAaFAAAAAAAACwBFgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAADoUAAAAAAAAD AEiACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAAAAsAXYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAIKF AAABAAAAAgH4DwEAAAAQAAAAiC+/9ifTwUGmHd2hPg52WgIB+g8BAAAAEAAAAIgvv/Yn08FBph3d oT4OdloCAfsPAQAAAJMAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAAbXNwc3QuZGxsAAAAAABOSVRB +b+4AQCqADfZbgAAAEM6XERvY3VtZW50cyBhbmQgU2V0dGluZ3NcTWFubnlcTG9jYWwgU2V0dGlu Z3NcQXBwbGljYXRpb24gRGF0YVxNaWNyb3NvZnRcT3V0bG9va1xPdXRsb29rLnBzdAAAAwD+DwUA AAADAA00/TcCAAIBFDQBAAAAEAAAAE5JVEH5v7gBAKoAN9luAAACAX8AAQAAADEAAAAwMDAwMDAw MDg4MkZCRkY2MjdEM0MxNDFBNjFERERBMTNFMEU3NjVBQTQ5MTIxMDAAAAAAAwAGEO7trFoDAAcQ oAUAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAAAoUkFOVFVQSEVSRSxTUE9JTEVSU0RPV05U SEVSRSkoRElHUkVTU0lPTjpJTkNJREVOVEFMTFksWUVTLFNQSVJJVEVEQVdBWVdBU0VYQ0VMTEVO VElQSUNLRURVUFRIRURWRFNPAAAAAFm+ - ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C278B2.F1FDF760-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 18:48:24 -0600 From: sirea@softhome.net Subject: IN> Reverse Engineering of Fallen Angels As most of you know, I did an exercise in alternate Bands for angels to Fall to, depending on the reason why they perverted their nature to begin with. A few people asked if I was going to do an alternate Choirs for Bands to Redeem to topic, and I was going to... until I found out I was really stuck on ideas. Honestly, it was now more than ever I understood the whole "demons are broken angels" statement, as I personally could not think of anything logical or original for the Eight Major Bands to Redeem to other than their typical heavenly analogue. I made a few, sure, but they all seemed wrong and too illogical. I guess what I'm getting at is that apparently and angel can break many different ways, but when fixed, they become just what they used to be... Then again, maybe I just can't think of anything really creative or obvious :D just sharing a tidbit. Sirea go sleep now -.-;; *THUD!* --- Sirea, Tired Cherub IST Exhaustion, Angel who Needs More Sleep Than 5 Hours a Bloody Night ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2827 ********************************