in_nomine-digest Thursday, June 6 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2664 In this digest: IN> Limbo Stick Rev 2! Re: IN> Kronos as the Metatron? I disagree. Re: IN> The Man from L.I.M.B.O. IN> man from limbo IN> Essence, the currency of the divine? Re: IN> Limbo Stick! (was Re: IN> Songs of Limbo) Re: IN> Kronos as the Metatron? I disagree. IN> Fwd: Kronos and The Fall: My Theory... IN> Resources. No, not that kind! (Re: Limbo Stick!) IN> Remiel, Archangel of Purgatory Re: IN> Remiel, Archangel of Purgatory Re: IN> Remiel, Archangel of Purgatory Re: IN> Limbo Stick Rev 2! Re: IN> The Man from L.I.M.B.O. Re: IN> Remiel, Archangel of Purgatory Re: IN> Limbo Stick! (was Re: IN> Songs of Limbo) Re: IN> The Man from L.I.M.B.O. Re: IN> Kronos as the Metatron? I disagree. Re: IN> Yves ad God? I disagree. Re: IN> Remiel, Archangel of Purgatory IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2661 Re: IN> House rules Re: IN> House rules RE: IN> Yves as God? I disagree. Re: IN> Limbo Stick! (was Re: IN> Songs of Limbo) Re: IN> Limbo Stick! (was Re: IN> Songs of Limbo) Re: IN> Remiel, Archangel of Purgatory Re: IN> Kronos as the Metatron? I disagree. Re: IN> Limbo Stick! (was Re: IN> Songs of Limbo) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 13:15:00 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Limbo Stick Rev 2! >The body/vessal is utterly >destroyed, and the soul/celestial/ethereal within is batted >clear to Limbo. Oh man, I gotta get me one of these! Friggin' no-trauma Malakim! HA! Take THAT! [sung] "I fights to the finich, 'cause I watch me TOONich!" -Pete Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:26:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Kronos as the Metatron? I disagree. Keep in mind that Kronos-as-former-Metatron is not canon; it's a theory that many on the list are fond of (ranks right up there with Vapula-used-to-be-Raphael). The actual origins of Kronos and Vapula fall under the heading of DaU, possibly CDaU. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:36:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Man from L.I.M.B.O. - --- BC Petery wrote: > Langtree Idealized Manufactured Body Organization I just love a good acronym. 0:> > Your assignment, Celestials, is to shut them down. Of > secondary importance > is to find out who is behind this and why they are doing > it. [Especially if a player serves Jean or Vapula.] I hope you mean if a _character_ serves Jean or Vapula. If a _player_ serves either party, I'm plenty worried. 0;> As for shutting them down, I can see plenty of demons not wanting to do that: "Let me get this straight... this thing makes immortal Servitors who can learn Songs and increase their own Forces without the knowledge or participation of a Prince?" Most Demon Princes would be against it for that very reason -- unless they had a chance to implement a special design feature, say a built-in Song of CelTongues that notified the owner when the Artifact was used. Of course the owners would all be Princes; they would only loan these things to Servitors. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 13:51:10 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> man from limbo > Why would this be limited to deceased children? I can >see bereaved lovers generating Ethereals the same way. There was a proposition for an Etherial "Buddy" on the list a few weeks ago. This sounds similar. "I have the strength of ten because my Heart is intact." -Pete Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 13:51:13 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Essence, the currency of the divine? >> Perhaps the dealers in Commerce Park have a variant of the Corporeal >> Song of Essence which allows the storage of large amounts of Essence for >> an indefinite length of time >I'm imagining an angel with the Elohim of Creation choir attunement, the >Transubstantiation servitor attunement, and a full century devoted to >making a wall tapestry woven of Reliquary/1 cloth strips: all 1200 of >them... I was thinking of something more along the lines of Dehydrated Essence. (L.Reliq. p56) But you reminded me of something I was forbidden from using. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Care Package And I sent it in a letter to myself... A modification of Jean's Disturbance Seismograph. (Disturbance Compass, L.Reliq. p58) Upon receiving a particular message from its owner via the Celestial Song of Tongues the Care Package sends all its stored Essence to its owner via its own Celestial Song of Tongues. Cost: 3/level for the Celestial Song of Tongues. The reliquary is 3/level for a normal one (may be accessed by touch), or 2/level for a reliquary that only works via the Celestial Song of Tongues. Slow Essence regeneration is a frequently used Feature. Activation: None. "I don't want the whole world, I only want your half." - They Might Be Giants Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:35:56 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Limbo Stick! (was Re: IN> Songs of Limbo) At 9:14 PM -0500 6/3/02, Gregg Forge wrote: >>Eventually, though, impossible as it's supposed to be, someone is >going to >>bring up Limbo, which happens to fit every available piece >>of evidence, except naturally that non-celestials can't *go* there. > > THIS part is a bone of contention, but I can't argue it until I >get home; that's where all my books are, for once. At the very least (she said mildly), it's certainly not in the Basic Knowledge About Limbo that little relievers get. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 14:02:17 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Kronos as the Metatron? I disagree. Michael Walton wrote: > > Keep in mind that Kronos-as-former-Metatron is not canon; > it's a theory that many on the list are fond of (ranks > right up there with Vapula-used-to-be-Raphael). Similar theories that have floated through the list: Eli is Jesus. Kronos is a Fallen Jesus (even got mentioned in Liber Servitorum) Michael and Novalis are going steady (and NOT talking politics on dates) Lawrence and Blandine are engaged (and Beleth is angsting about it) Janus is Valefor and has multiple personality disorder Janus is Valefor and is a double agent Kobal will Redeem someday Lilith will Redeem someday Dominic will Fall someday Dominic is a Balseraph in serious deep cover Dominic is a Balseraph in serious denial Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 14:28:34 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Fwd: Kronos and The Fall: My Theory... >From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Admin request of type /\bsubscribe\b/i at line 1 > >From: "Rolland Therrien" >Subject: Kronos and The Fall: My Theory... >Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:19:41 -0400 > >Personally, I don't s u b scribe to the "Fallen Servitor of Yves" theory >myself... I believe that Kronos is linked to the Fall, in a way that's very >disturbing. It involves an old mythological concept called The Qlippoth >(KLIP-oat). > >The word qlippoth means "Shells" in Hebrew. They would be the crusts, >scabs, chitinous carapaces of actual creation and life. Heterodox >Kabbalistic theory holds that before the Creation, God made a "first draft" >of the world, which He then remade after destroying it. > >The fragments, or shells, of this Creation were basically formed into The >Vale of Hinnon, "God's Garbage pit". Where they fester and breed, and >ultimatly seek to arise once more and replace Reality, remaking it in their >own stunted image. > >How does that fit into In Nomine continuity? Well, Lucifer and his >followers were tossed into Hell after the Rebellion. But why was Hell there >in the first place? ...Maybe it wasn't called "Hell" when that area was >made... > >In fact, adding the Qlippoth to In Nomine gives a whole new logic to >events... > >-Are Demons truly mockeries of their Angelic counterparts... or are they in >fact the "Angels" once planned for a completly different reality? > >-Is Kronos nothing more then a dark shade of Yves... or was he the "Yves" >of a previous attempt at creation... One who wants his Reality back? > >-Did Lucifer truly rebel against God because he Selfishly rejected the >Symphony... or did he discover the shells of the Qlippothic Symphony, and >somehow became beholden to serve THAT version of Reality, to restore it to >it's former glory? > >-Did Lucifer truly create Kronos out of the ramnents of Metratron's >remains... Or was Kronos' arrival the sign that the Qlippothic Symphony was >gaining strength once more? > >-What is it that dwells in the Lower Hells that seems to unnerve even the >Demon Princes? A realm of Horror even beyond the norms of Hell, Lucifer's >private Boudoir... > >...Or perhaps the foundation of the Next Symphony? > >A little something to ponder. *wink* > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 14:34:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Resources. No, not that kind! (Re: Limbo Stick!) At 6:36 AM +0100 6/5/02, I. Inayat wrote: >Fortean Times is a great resource for weird stuff that could be used in an IN >story - apart from the explorations on religious matters (stigmata, >incorruptible corpses), there're 'normal' Fortean events worthy of either Heaven >or Hell (especially Dark Humor, Fate and Destiny), or basic human - or >Symphonic - weirdness and ineffability. Plenty of stuff to explore... FATE Magazine is equally keen for that kind of stuff. There's all that juicy stuff just WAITING to be put into your game... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 14:37:43 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Remiel, Archangel of Purgatory REMIEL, Archangel of Purgatory "You mean to say I have been in Hell?" "Yes, though if you come out of it, you may call it Purgatory." -- "The Great Divorce" by C. S. Lewis "I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny." -- Matthew 5:26 "I am Remiel, set over those who rise." -- "Season of Mists" by Neil Gaiman. (See also "A Dictionary of Angels" by Davidson) The Angels of Final Judgement, at the Gate of Hell, have a more complicated job than you might think. Many of the souls that go to Hell have achieved their Destiny, not their Fate, but they are far too imperfect for Heaven. The Angels send these souls are to Hell, but they don't go to the soul-yards; they go to Remiel, to be purged. Purgatory is not a separate celestial realm. Rather, it is the process of purifying your soul for Heaven, and it is done in Hell. Remiel and his servants oversee this purgation and make sure the purging souls are protected from the Horde (as much as they should be). Purgatory is a secret society in Hell, run by Remiel. Remiel is an Elohite, a former Angel of Purity. Shortly after Heaven discovered that wicked humans were going to Hell, Remiel discovered some there that were no longer stained with sin. (This was while on a raid, something that seldom happens now.) Remiel devoted himself to freeing these purified souls, thus setting his feet on the path to his Word and, later, his elevation to Archangel. Remiel's Word attunement ("Remiel's Veil") gives his angels the "luck" to synchronistically avoid demons in Hell. The Princes are aware of his existence, but have seldom been able to penetrate his Veil ... which annoys them. Archangels like Michael and Lawrence often long to use Remiel's Veil to infiltrate Hell, but (1) Remiel is reluctant to entangle himself this way, and (2) the Veil also means it's hard for those Veiled to attack or spy on demons. DISSONANCE CONDITION It is dissonant for Angels of Purgatory to do anything to hinder a purging soul in its work of self-reform. CHOIR ATTUNEMENTS Seraphim of Purgatory: +2 on their Choir resonnance when hearing confessions and expressions of penitance and remorse. Cherubim of Purgatory: detect moral dangers to their attuned; they do not take dissonance from damage to their attuned until damage reaches the point of Force-stripping. Ophanim of Purgatory: make invisible transits through Hell. Elohim of Purgatory: detect which passion an individual most needs to control. Malakim of Purgatory: detect the top-ranking sin an individual needs to purge. Bright Lilim of Purgatory: same as Malakim Kyriotates of Purgatory: act as "good Shedim," invisible voices of conscience counselling multiple hosts; note they can ride and hide in Celestial forms just as Shedim can Corporeal ones, only they can take multiple hosts like other Kyriotates. Mercurians of Purgatory: know who someone most needs to see for moral growth. Saints of Purgatory: all veterans of Purgatory themselves, able to boost their abilities as counsellors with the Exhortation attunements. SERVITOR ATTUNEMENTS Exhortation Against Pride/Envy/Avarice/Wrath/Lust/Gluttony/Sloth: There are seven versions of the Exhortation attunement, one for each of the Seven Deadly Sins. Each acts like the Divine Logic attunement, for the purpose of persuading the target to repent of the sin involved. The persuasion lasts for a number of hours equal to your Celestial Forces, after which the target is free to delude itself again if it insists. DISTINCTIONS Vassal of Purgatory: Look like the opposing Band at will. (Malakim look like Lilim.) Even with the Veil, demons sometimes spot Angels of Purgatory in the distance (sort of like humans spotting Bigfoot). With this distinction, even that doesn't happen. Friend of the Pure: Detect redeemable spirits on sight. Master of Purgation: Move souls in and out of Hell. RELATIONS Allied: Yves, Dominic Associated: Michael, Laurence Hostile: None. RITES * Join a purging soul in its pain for two hours. * Slay an irredeemable spirit (1 pt for every 3 Forces, rounded off) Note that Angels of Purgatory have no trouble getting their daily point of Essence, even though they are in Hell; other angels regenerate no Essence when in Hell. CHANCE TO SUMMON: 4 SUMMONING MODIFIERS: +1: Spending an hour singing penitential psalms. +1: Standing on the borders of Hell. +1: A soul freshly purged (within 24 hours) of one of the Seven Deadly Sins +2: A soul freshly purged (within 24 hours) of ALL sin. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 15:41:31 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Remiel, Archangel of Purgatory I like the whole idea behind him. I would only allow his Servitors as NPCs, but that's just my own opinion. One thing I am wondering. It mentioned that Souls that had acheived their Destiny but were too imperfect for Heaven were sent to Purgatory. That seems a bit redundant, since the Angels of Final Judgment take the souls up to the Higher Heavens so the imperfection should be burned out of them that way. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 16:13:21 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Remiel, Archangel of Purgatory Cameron McCurry wrote: > One thing I am wondering. It mentioned that Souls that had acheived > their Destiny but were too imperfect for Heaven were sent to > Purgatory. That seems a bit redundant, since the Angels of Final > Judgment take the souls up to the Higher Heavens so the > imperfection should be burned out of them that way. I wasn't aware that the Angels of Final Judgement did that, or indeed that any angels went to the Higher Heavens, save for Uriel's one-way trip. Which book is that in? Which souls are these? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 16:10:52 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Limbo Stick Rev 2! > >The body/vessal is utterly > >destroyed, and the soul/celestial/ethereal within is batted > >clear to Limbo. > >Oh man, I gotta get me one of these! >Friggin' no-trauma Malakim! HA! Take THAT! > And the best part is, it MAY be obvious, but if no one sees what happens... Sadistic (read as: ALL) GMs can add as much or as little disturbance as desired, but I think that is it should be a two-part disturbance; the first at the 'Home Run' swing, and the second as the body-vessal goes POOF! Kamika-Z ...and if disturbance can sound SPECIFICALLY like a aliminum baseball bat's happy little ping... > >[sung] "I fights to the finich, 'cause I watch me TOONich!" -Pete > >Pete, Demon of Misinformation >http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/index.html > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 16:14:58 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> The Man from L.I.M.B.O. >A sorceror as a plastic surgeon? Why, yes, I do believe I mentioned that...:D > >[the] >Langtree >Idealized >Manufactured >Body >Organization > That would be the people who actually donate the essence to fling. >"Just climb into the tank and, in a few weeks, the chemicals and enzymes >will have produced your ideal body." > Mmmmmmmm, whole-body digestion... >What really happens is that the subject is sent to Limbo. The tank is >really a self powered relic/1 reliquary/1 that sends Essence to the subject >via the Celestial Song of Tongues. > Kinda puny, but it does the job nicely... >Your assignment, Celestials, is to shut them down. Of secondary >importance is to find out who is behind this and why they are doing it. >[Especially if a player serves Jean or Vapula.] > And find out HOW, if you serve Kobal or Vapula. Asmodeans... SEEK AND DESTROY! > >Doodle Doodle Dee, >Wubba Wubba Wubba, > Damnit. What's that from again? Kamika-Z, who has a tune in his head, but not the right one... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 21:22:51 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> Remiel, Archangel of Purgatory I do *like* this! May I steal it? Janet _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 16:23:47 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Limbo Stick! (was Re: IN> Songs of Limbo) >>>Eventually, though, impossible as it's supposed to be, someone is going >>>to bring up Limbo, which happens to fit every available >>>piece of evidence, except naturally that non-celestials can't *go* there. >> >> THIS part is a bone of contention, but I can't argue it until I get >>home; that's where all my books are, for once. > >At the very least (she said mildly), it's certainly not in the Basic >Knowledge About Limbo that little relievers get. O:> Offhand, just how much does the average Reliever get told about Limbo, before fully fledging? "..." "What, Master Jean?" "Do you know the sound of one hand clapping?" "...no...?" "When you do, you will know the sound of Limbo." Kamika-Z ...maybe Limbo has the same sorta mystique as sex... _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:25 +0100 (BST) From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Subject: Re: IN> The Man from L.I.M.B.O. In article <20020605173607.39943.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com>, thunderdog_sa@yahoo.com (Michael Walton) wrote: > I hope you mean if a _character_ serves Jean or Vapula. > If a _player_ serves either party, I'm plenty worried. 0;> Bwahahahah! Mind you, it can be hard to tell /which/ of them one serves. - --- John Dallman, servant of Beta Testing jgd@cix.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 14:55:46 -0700 From: WonderGecko Subject: Re: IN> Kronos as the Metatron? I disagree. [schnippeh] > Dominic will Fall someday > Dominic is a Balseraph in serious deep cover > Dominic is a Balseraph in serious denial > > Earl How about Dominic gets Force-stripped into a Remnant and turns into...dundunDUN! Javert. ...Okay, so I went to Les Mis鲡bles last Friday. I have it on the brain. *pokes at her write-up of Fantine, Cherub of Destiny* - --Kim, Angel of Random Enthusiasm ==== "Sometimes," said Petra, "what's right is not peaceful or passive. What matters is that you do not hide from the consequences. You bear what must be borne." ==== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:05:57 -0500 From: "James Stein" Subject: Re: IN> Yves ad God? I disagree. > > I'm not fond of this outlook on Yves. He might grant the Distinction > knowing that it risked leading Kronos to Fall, but to outcast Kronos at the > moment of granting it seems to be taking away any free will Kronos might > have. Yves might know the future, tho I've seen nothing to say he knows it > the same way that God does, but he still has to give everyone the chance to > exercise their free will. Isn't it still questionable whether or not angel's recieve the benefit of Free Will? I'm pretty sure the core book even has a little side-bar about how some angels think they've got free will, and others think they're literally the Hand Of God. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 21:00:52 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Remiel, Archangel of Purgatory > I wasn't aware that the Angels of Final Judgement did that, or indeed > that any angels went to the Higher Heavens, save for Uriel's one-way > trip. Which book is that in? Which souls are these? Whoops! Misremembered that part. All they do is keep souls from entering Hell that don't belong there. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 01:13:24 +0000 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2661 Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 05:50:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> House rules > Interesting stuff. I like the social attributes -- SJG >missed a trick with that one, IMO. I disagree with you >about canonical metaphysics, though; some things should be >impossible (or at least never known to have happened). > >===== >Michael Walton I expect most GMs to set those limits and break them whenever they want, just as they can change the mechanics if they want to. While I agree that a game's "canon" or "default" mode should have limitations, I personally feel that In Nomine as presented in the core rules is just fine, and the game line seems to have added too many canon metaphysical restrictions in the supplements, IMHO. That a vampire can't have a body of mist (Shedite of Theft attunement) with out the forces of a Shedite grafted to it seems pretty silly to me. An interesting idea, but kinda silly. Just like no one can have Danger Sense unless they are either a Malakite, serve War, or have a Malakite's forces grafted onto them. This is a standard ability available to just about anyone in any other genre. But, this is also connected to my problem with too many of the powers available to essentially -all- characters in the original European game suddenly becoming only available to certain classes of characters in the official American translation/version/mutant/thingy. Don't get me wrong, I like it, mostly because it givesmy players something they can read in english about the background - with _art_! - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ T鬩chargez MSN Explorer gratuitement ࠬ'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 01:17:57 +0000 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> House rules Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 10:44:02 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> House rules At 9:54 PM +0000 6/2/02, Perry Lloyd wrote: /social stats/ >>suggested alternative names for them, since at the moment they smack of >>White Wolf. > >I dunno about the names, but I'd think that some of the other skills might >acquire different/additional defaults -- Lying, for instance, might >be the higher of what it already is, and Manipulation, while Seduction >would want Presence or Appearance... hrm, my changed default list must have fled at some point during my editing. I'll go add those. thx! - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Discutez en ligne avec vos amis, essayez MSN Messenger : http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 01:25:28 +0000 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> House rules Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 12:27:36 -0500 From: "Brook Freeman" Subject: RE: IN> House rules >I'm using the Eden Project (name?) > >Eden Ban is how I've heard it referred to. Thank you. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Rejoignez le plus grand service de messagerie au monde avec MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:59:39 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Yves as God? I disagree. - -----Original Message----- From: James Stein [mailto:JamesStein@si.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 7:06 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> Yves ad God? I disagree. > > I'm not fond of this outlook on Yves. He might grant the Distinction > knowing that it risked leading Kronos to Fall, but to outcast Kronos at the > moment of granting it seems to be taking away any free will Kronos might > have. Yves might know the future, tho I've seen nothing to say he knows it > the same way that God does, but he still has to give everyone the chance to > exercise their free will. Isn't it still questionable whether or not angel's recieve the benefit of Free Will? I'm pretty sure the core book even has a little side-bar about how some angels think they've got free will, and others think they're literally the Hand Of God. > The fact that they disagree means that on some level they do possess if not completely free will at least the illusion of it; just as mankind being uncertain as to if God's perfect knowledge means predestination exists or not. Either way, I can't see Yves making an angel fall. If he knows giving an angel a certain distinction will lead to it's falling then he may choose to not grant that distinction to that angel, or he might grant it with the foreknowledge of the fall to come. But either as an advocate of free will or predestination, he would not make the angel fall. Free will means the angel has to choose it and predestination means that if Yves makes him fall he is breaking the will of God which was that the distinction would lead the angel to fall. And in any case, I just can't see Yves outcasting any angel just because Yves himself granted a distinction to that angel. It's saying Yves is responsible for causing the angel to fall. DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 16:53:53 +0800 From: Manny Nepomuceno Subject: Re: IN> Limbo Stick! (was Re: IN> Songs of Limbo) Hey, > Forget _that_. This new development opens up the >possibility of Hellsworn "Saints" in canon. If a Soldier >of Hell somehow gets sent to Limbo and comes back in a >self-made Vessel, he is for all intents and purposes a >Saint. And nothing in that contradicts published IN material. Ah, some minor quibbles about this: (a) Saints don't self-generate vessels. They get handed vessels, IIRC. (b) That Blessed advantage is a fixture of Sainthood. Soldiers of Hell don't get it, and even a prolonged visit to Limbo won't change that. On the other hand... If a Soldier on either side enters Limbo and leaves with an undesirable vessel, can his Superior strip the old vessel from him and grant him a new one? What about the undead? Can they enter Limbo? They're bound into their vessels, after all... Hmm, this opened up an interesting can of worms. ;) Manny Neps http://www.geocities.com/angeloffools "Appearing abruptly and yelling 'Nobody expects the Divine Inquisition' is considered unacceptable behavior for all Triads." -- Judgment memorandum IND-774-2986 (rev 1992) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 05:39:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Limbo Stick! (was Re: IN> Songs of Limbo) - --- Manny Nepomuceno wrote: > (a) Saints don't self-generate vessels. They get handed > vessels, IIRC. True. But a Vessel is immortal and doesn't require food or water. That's true no matter how one gets the Vessel. In that regard, a Mortal who got a Vessel from a visit to Limbo is the equivalent of a Saint. > (b) That Blessed advantage is a fixture of Sainthood. > Soldiers of Hell > don't get it, and even a prolonged visit to Limbo won't > change that. This I completely agree with -- but then, who said the Symphony was fair to Hellsworn? };> > If a Soldier on either side enters Limbo and leaves with > an undesirable > vessel, can his Superior strip the old vessel from him > and grant him a new one? I don't see why not. > What about the undead? Can they enter Limbo? They're > bound into their vessels, after all... And when the Vessel goes "poof" as the door to Limbo opens, the Undead's soul (which is bound to the Vessel)dissolves into the Symphony. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 09:47:51 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Remiel, Archangel of Purgatory Janet Anderson wrote: > > I do *like* this! May I steal it? Thank you. Of course you may "steal" it; otherwise I wouldn't post it to the list. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 09:50:58 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Kronos as the Metatron? I disagree. WonderGecko wrote: > How about Dominic gets Force-stripped into a Remnant and turns > into...dundunDUN! Javert. > > ...Okay, so I went to Les Mis鲡bles last Friday. I have it on the brain. Javert is, undoubtedly, a great role-model for anyone who wants to play Dominic or Dominicans as fanatical justice without mercy, which I suspect was the original conception Derek Percy had in mind. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 14:13:22 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Limbo Stick! (was Re: IN> Songs of Limbo) At 4:53 PM +0800 6/6/02, Manny Nepomuceno wrote: [buncha questions] >Hmm, this opened up an interesting can of worms. I do presume that this means no one wants "canon" answers here? >"Appearing abruptly and yelling 'Nobody expects the Divine Inquisition' is >considered unacceptable behavior for all Triads." -- Judgment memorandum >IND-774-2986 (rev 1992) Hee hee hee hee hee. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2664 ********************************