in_nomine-digest Monday, May 6 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2624 In this digest: Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) IN> Re: Dueling Sequels. Re: IN> A Sequel... Re: IN> Dueling Sequels Re: IN> Month of Mayflowers: An ancient attuning Re: IN> The Demon of Pain (the War) Re: IN> Sorcerers Re: IN> A Sequel... Re: IN> Re: Dueling Sequels. Re: IN> Dueling Sequels RE: IN> Dueling Sequels Re: IN> The Demon of Pain (Nightmares) Re: IN> "Experience", time spent alive, and angel promotion... was The Angel of Specialists Re: IN> "Experience", time spent alive, and angel promotion... was The Angel of Specialists IN> Dueling Sequels IN> Alternate Factions Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 15:33:30 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) >At 10:09 AM 5/5/02 -0700, you wrote: > >>I don't think it can be dropped. >>I could be wrong. Someone with an official word? > >This doesn't exactly answer your question, but >http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/faq/celestial_faq.html#rule-angels-seraphim-00 >2 >states that Seraphim can't ignore their own peace aura because "it's a part >of them". > >-EDG G:IN says, quite explicitly, that the aura is always on and cannot be switched off. I'd imagine that such an emphatic statement reflects the Attunement's intended state in the original game. William ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 15:07:10 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) William J. Keith wrote: > G:IN says, quite explicitly, that the aura is always on and cannot be > switched off. I'd imagine that such an emphatic statement reflects the > Attunement's intended state in the original game. I'm pretty sure it's intended to be an "always on" attunement. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 11:09:23 +1000 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> Re: Dueling Sequels. Thanks William, (and everyone else), this helps. And nice sequel, BTW. > Rose got up, and motioned to the > Soldier to follow. Reggie looked up. "Where are you going, halo? > Siddown!" > "Or you'll what?" Rose asked calmly. Nothing, of course. "Try not > to kill each other while I'm in the kitchen...." Rose headed for the > kitchen, the Soldier following her. Why would he object to her moving? The demons just follow her..the one weakness with the Djinn resonance is that Reggie can't harm his attuned - do you really think he hasn't attuned himself to Rose, knowing that she cannot exploit this? No matter where she goes, he can find her - unless she admits defeat and flees to Heaven, of course. (And then there's the resonances of the other demons to consider....the Balseraph is unlikely to risk affecting Rose: way to likely to backlash. But the Lilim?) > Rose sat down in her chair again as the demons continued to plot > and plan, sipping their tea and eating her homemade biscuits. It wasn't > long before, as she'd suspected he would, the Shedite nodded off. Gluttony > had taken its toll, and the Shedite had gotten a much larger dose of the > soporific into his system. Causing Rose dissonance. Not for drugging them; for killing the Shedite's host. Enough soporifics to render a Shedite unconscious (which boots him out of his host) will be instantly fatal for the poor hobo. Meanwhile, our Gluttonous Shedite (who doesn't have dissonance, as the hobo was still alive when he left him) possesses Bob. Also, as a Glutton, the Shedite will have used his Consume on both Rose and Bob - both to avoid his daily dissonance, and as a habit from dealing with demons of Drugs & Poison. There's a reason Gluttons aren't all addicts. If anyone will be drugging people, it'll be the demons giving Rose - and possibly each other - doses of crack cocaine: the simplest way to recruit for Drugs is causing Addictions. > She looked down. There on her desk, in neat handwriting, was the > translation of everything she had heard. There was also a note from her > friend. Oh yes, the demons would have to be idiots to actually say anything secret in front of Rose: all she needs is a recording of the conversation and sooner or later Heaven is going to find out what it was all about. For that matter, Rose *could* learn Helltongue - or perform the Corporeal Song of Tongues - or get a human to learn the language - or even pay a Lilim to translate. But that doesn't stop the house being a good place to hang out, and deal with normal problems. > - ------- Or ------- > > Reggie looked down at the bleeding hole that had just appeared in > his chest. > "Oh dear," said Rose, knitting in the corner. "Thierry does so > like his sniper rifle. Laurentians can be quite hasty, at times. Well, only if he has a way of targeting through the walls: if the demons are spending essence, not a problem (Go Malakim of Destiny - best use of their attunement!). But this does go back to the basic point - the Laurencians have to come and save the day. If Flowers is peaceful because someone else does their dirty work... Also, remember that this cuts both ways - a demon with a sniper rifle can pick off Seraphim of Flowers at will. > > - ------- Or ------- > It worked. A few minutes later, she dropped the stall and quickly > sang a Celestial Song of Charm, powered with as much Essence as she dared > spend. "Now, then, Reggie. Your plans, the ones you were laying tonight. > Wouldn't I be ever so frightened if I actually knew what they were? 'Rose - I *know* what you're afraid of: what will terrify you..' - (Calabite of Nightmares lets him know, and inflict it: stunning the Seraph) - and you're right, everything you is true...' {Is it? if so, acting as if he's been affected by a Balseraph resonance won't trigger to her Seraph resonance. If not, she's just picked up dissonance for lying. Either way, the fear of Falling, enhanced by a Band attunement, makes her putty in his paws). > Wouldn't your deviousness and cruelty just terrify me? Why don't you tell > me what all you were planning?" :-) So she's going to be a better liar than a Balseraph? More cunning than a Lilim? She might succeed, actually. As you've pointed out, he won't be expecting it. But she's heading for a Fall - avoiding violence because other vices will get you what you want... > - ------------------- > > You get the idea. My point in each of these responses is this: > pacifism can appear soft and useless, but a prepared pacifist is an > effective agent for many causes -- and their effectiveness is not least > from the fact that they are often underestimated. To be sure, they are > denied a particular route of solution, and their enemies can take this into > account and plan for it. But this simply prods them to be all the more > creative in their tactics. Granted - but while the pacifist cannot use violence, their opponents aren't similarly unable to use non-violent responses. Lust, Nightmares, Fate, Media, Gluttony, Dark Humor, Theft, Technology, Drugs, The Game, even Factions: all function better when the bullets aren't flying. Anything Flowers can do, they can do - or exploit. So Flowers loses - and The Sword sighs, and heads in to fix the problem. And because the demons are now entrenched, and aided by newly Fallen, they end up having to call in War. And the Laurencians end up blaming their bad rep with War on Novalis. > > William ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 20:25:17 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> A Sequel... From: "james walker" > > "And then...you will have failed. For I know what you fear: returning empty > handed, having failed in your chance to prove to The Sword that you are > actually useful. Were they here instead of you, things would be different. A > knight in shining armour: that's something to drive away Nightmares." > > "But not you." When the head of the demon's vessel dissolved in a red mist moments later, Rose was unsure who was more shocked: himself, or the djinn's companions. Moments later, the door to the apartment was flung open to allow a squad of uniformed police officers, who had the remaining demons in will shackles in a manner as swift as it was non-violent. "How did you," Rose began to ask the leader of the group, only to be silenced with a gesture and a smile. "Azzur of the Sword, at your service," he said, "We were aware that the demons knew about your apartment. And had a sniper on duty on the rooftop overlooking your windows, out of range of your attunement." "You used me as bait, in order to kill," Rose sputtered in his outrage. "Just as a venus flytrap does," Azzur replied calmly, "But if it helps salve your conscience, we don't plan on killing any of the other Hellspawn we captured, although I'm certain that they will wish that we'd just killed them, before we're through. They're far more valuable to us as sources of information than as corpses." "But look on the bright side," Azzur continued as he turned to leave, "If Laurence didn't think you were useful, would he have posted a guard over you?" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 21:50:39 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Dueling Sequels So, for a month should we all just choose sides in the War/Peace factions and see which one wins out after the debates? If so, dibs on Eli and his Kyriotate/Malakite/Elohite/Mercurian attunements. Josh (What do you mean I can't have a vessel with six arms each wielding an enchanted talisman (Fighting/6), relic (Fire (Celestial/6) Light (Celestial/6)), reliquary/6 mop? It'll only cost... 100 character points or so. I'll accept some discord.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 20:07:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Month of Mayflowers: An ancient attuning Whoa. This rocked. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 20:11:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Demon of Pain (the War) This was a pleasant twist; a Warrior who has gotten _less_ powerful since he got his Word. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 20:19:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Sorcerers - --- james walker wrote: > Of course, as this costs them a Force, they can't use > Sorcery any more Unless they naturally had 7+, which a very few Humans do. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 20:24:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> A Sequel... An interesting idea, but not workable. All Rose would have to do is call in the Malakim -- and then leave. The demons would know that; they'd either hightail it out of there or get chopped to pieces. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 00:12:26 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Dueling Sequels. >Thanks William, (and everyone else), this helps. >And nice sequel, BTW. [tranq scenario] >Why would he object to her moving? The demons just follow her..the one >weakness with the Djinn resonance is that Reggie can't harm his attuned - do >you really think he hasn't attuned himself to Rose, knowing that she cannot >exploit this? No matter where she goes, he can find her - unless she admits >defeat and flees to Heaven, of course. And being attuned to her means there's one less person or thing that he can be attuned to elsewhere. To Rose, this might be acceptable, not to mention that it means she can keep general track of him as well, since he has to come into physical contact with her every few days. >(And then there's the resonances of the other demons to consider....the >Balseraph is unlikely to risk affecting Rose: way too likely to backlash. But >the Lilim?) If Rose doesn't know not to accept favors from a Lilim, she shouldn't be on Earth. Any attempt by the Lilim in this direction, however, is almost certainly going to involve talking to Rose, and thus exposing herself to Rose's resonance. >> Gluttony >> had taken its toll, and the Shedite had gotten a much larger dose of the >> soporific into his system. >Causing Rose dissonance. Not for drugging them; for killing the Shedite's >host. Enough soporifics to render a Shedite unconscious (which boots him out >of his host) will be instantly fatal for the poor hobo. Celestial tolerances to poison aren't that much higher than human -- a comparison of G:IN and the CPG indicates that celestials don't have any special resistance to drugs other than their high stats. > Meanwhile, our >Gluttonous Shedite (who doesn't have dissonance, as the hobo was still alive >when he left him) possesses Bob. He can certainly try. Bob, a Soldier, can see the Shedite coming, and even if not, Rose will know him and be instantly concerned about changes in his behavior. >Also, as a Glutton, the Shedite will have used his Consume on both Rose and >Bob - both to avoid his daily dissonance, and as a habit from dealing with >demons of Drugs & Poison. There's a reason Gluttons aren't all addicts. This I'll grant as a possibility. Of course, it has a good chance of not working on Rose. As a matter of fact, a Shedite might easily use it on his fellow demons as well -- but this is not something to count on. >If anyone will be drugging people, it'll be the demons giving Rose - and >possibly each other - doses of crack cocaine: the simplest way to recruit >for Drugs is causing Addictions. I'd imagine he'd have to use violence to deliver it. Bob and Rose would cerainly resist with everything they could muster. [translation scenario] >Oh yes, the demons would have to be idiots to actually say anything secret >in front of Rose: all she needs is a recording of the conversation and >sooner or later Heaven is going to find out what it was all about. For that >matter, Rose *could* learn Helltongue - or perform the Corporeal Song of >Tongues - or get a human to learn the language - or even pay a Lilim to >translate. >But that doesn't stop the house being a good place to hang out, and deal >with normal problems. Even "normal problems" among demons are good intelligence for the Host. In fact, the recording is an equally good idea, as is the fact that Rose now has top-notch knowledge of their faces, voices, and manners. By the way, Corporeal Song of Tongues doesn't work on Helltongue. [sniper scenario] >Well, only if he has a way of targeting through the walls: if the demons are >spending essence, not a problem (Go Malakim of Destiny - best use of their >attunement!). But this does go back to the basic point - the Laurencians >have to come and save the day. If Flowers is peaceful because someone else >does their dirty work... >Also, remember that this cuts both ways - a demon with a sniper rifle can >pick off Seraphim of Flowers at will. There's always windows. ;^) At any rate, this is a good point -- someone has come in with violence to save the day. Novalis, I might add, accepts this when it is truly necessary. Even Rose could spend Essence on a Will roll to use violence, although of course she'd far rather do something more productive. Also, check out the flavor quote in Novalis' section of the LCant; this seems like it could be fairly common procedure. [Cel. Charm scenario] >> It worked. A few minutes later, she dropped the stall and quickly >> sang a Celestial Song of Charm, powered with as much Essence as she dared >> spend. "Now, then, Reggie. Your plans, the ones you were laying tonight. >> Wouldn't I be ever so frightened if I actually knew what they were? >'Rose - I *know* what you're afraid of: what will terrify you..' - (Calabite >of Nightmares lets him know, and inflict it: stunning the Seraph) - and >you're right, everything you is true...' >{Is it? if so, acting as if he's been affected by a Balseraph resonance >won't trigger to her Seraph resonance. If not, she's just picked up >dissonance for lying. Either way, the fear of Falling, enhanced by a Band >attunement, makes her putty in his paws). >> Wouldn't your deviousness and cruelty just terrify me? Why don't you tell >> me what all you were planning?" >:-) >So she's going to be a better liar than a Balseraph? >More cunning than a Lilim? >She might succeed, actually. As you've pointed out, he won't be expecting >it. But she's heading for a Fall - avoiding violence because other vices >will get you what you want... Check her precise words again -- she was asking, not stating. Love those Seraphic evasion techniques. :^) Also, I thought Reggie was a Djinn, unless he has also obtained the Calabite of Nightmares attunement. Besides, with a low Will (if you're going to learn Cel. Charm, learn it *well*), Rose still has a demon that's putty in her hands for a good long while; he'll tend to believe what he thinks she's said, and be highly suggestible. >> - ------------------- >Granted - but while the pacifist cannot use violence, their opponents aren't >similarly unable to use non-violent responses. Lust, Nightmares, Fate, >Media, Gluttony, Dark Humor, Theft, Technology, Drugs, The Game, even >Factions: all function better when the bullets aren't flying. So does Heaven, in general. Even the more militant Words can do good work in a peaceful environment. > Anything >Flowers can do, they can do - or exploit. This works backwards as well -- if the demons are avoiding violence, its fertile ground for the Flowerchildren to work in. An excellent example of my point is the (Major!) Tether to Nightmares at the Nagasaki Atomic Bomb Museum. Its Seneschal reports to the Demon of Atomic Fears (think Sarah Connor's nightmares), "whose own Word has been shrinking lately." (direct quote, LCant). If this isn't an example of peace directly weakening a demonic Word, I don't know what is. If this keeps up, the Museum, which was erected to prevent nuclear war, may well be switching sides soon. Or take the generic Tether, the Alley. Junkies, gangsters, rapists. The latter was what set up the Tether, one particularly bad year. A direct attack on the Tether would be as fruitless as any other -- violence is not only common here, but actually part of the Tether. Malakite with a truck bomb? Yeah, right. Maybe he'll fork the the Tether between Fear and (Infernal) Fire. On the other hand, if the neighborhood gentrified, headed toward suburbia, got cleaned up, fixed the junkies, the people started standing up against the gangs... well, bye-bye Tether. Demons might be able to use opposing tactics against Novalis' generic Tether, a community garden (burn it! plant coca and call the cops! stage a gang war on it!), but they won't have the support of the local community, which the Novalines can gain. My rock-bottom, fundamental point is this. There exist situations in which pacifism or at least nonviolence make the best options of attack. many of them serve Heaven. Once Laurence recognized this, he would be dissonant not to use Novalines in those situations. William ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 21:36:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Dueling Sequels - --- Josh Moger wrote: > So, for a month should we all just choose sides in > the War/Peace factions > and see which one wins out after the debates? Ehh. I've always disliked the War/Peace breakdown: all of the Archangels want to see the end of Hell, after all. A better dichotemy for Heaven would be Force / Persuasion: some AAs want to conquer the Other Side, and some want to convert them. This way, you end up with a more balanced political setup than Novalis vs. Everybody Else.* It makes more sense for Hell to have a War/Peace faction, really: some of the Princes would be happy to call for a ceasefire and divvy up the planet... Moe *This is one reason why I'm looking at the entire Sequels thing with a jaundiced eye, BTW. The various scenarios are all very creative, of course - but they mostly seem to assume that Novalis is comfortable with having insecure** and weak-willed*** Servitors serving her. She doesn't have the luxury of being able to coddle either. :) **read: "Needs external proof of self-worth". ***read: "Allows demons to dictate the terms of the encounter". ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/13/02(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 03:15:26 -0600 From: Julian Mensch Subject: RE: IN> Dueling Sequels > Ehh. I've always disliked the War/Peace breakdown: > all of the Archangels want to see the end of Hell, > after all. A better dichotemy for Heaven would be > Force / Persuasion: some AAs want to conquer the Other > Side, and some want to convert them. This way, you end > up with a more balanced political setup than Novalis > vs. Everybody Else.* I've always thought that the "Peace faction" held Blandine, Marc, Litheroy, Eli and Yves, with Zadkiel hanging out on the fringes and ending up supporting them more than the War faction, politically. All the others are more willing to use violence than Novy, but then pretty much everyone in the War faction is _less_ violent then Mike, and still considered to be militant AAs. (Eli ends up being seen as warlike fairly often, but I think that's more because his Malakite attunement is just _so cool_ then because of his actual politics.) Want a wierd, brain-breaking thought? Novalis as Duncan MacLeod. Everybody who doesn't watch Highlander will probably be confused by that, but to those that do it should make some sense, especially to those that saw the Ahriman arc. Every episode pretty muvh goes like this: Duncan meets a new Immortal (5 mins), has 10 minutes of flashbacks, spends 30 minutes trying to find a peace- ful solution to the conflict, and then 5 minutes cutting the guy's head off, and another 5 mourning about having to do it. Sounds like Novalis "showing her thorns" to me! Of course, Novy is better at finding peaceful solutions; I just thought that the two characters' philosophies on life (and the value thereof, and the proper role of violence) might be very similar. - -- Julian Mensch ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 05:50:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Demon of Pain (Nightmares) I like this one just because he's optimized for operating in the Marches; that realm is seriously underutilized, IMO. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 09:49:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> "Experience", time spent alive, and angel promotion... was The Angel of Specialists Janet Anderson wrote: > Earl Wajenberg, have I mentioned to you what impeccable taste in > literature you have? :) Thank you kindly. Chesterton is a great source for zippy little quotes, as I trust the previous examples show. Slipping the phrase "G. K. Chesterton" to any decent search engine will get you long lists of such quote. He even has a second-order IN tie-in, in the manner of the "N degrees of separation" game. One of Percy's inspirations, mentioned in the main book biblio, is Gaiman's "Sandman" (for gritty modern fantasy, I suppose, not to mention the theological connections and some creatures resembling Uber-Wordbound). One of the Sandman characters, Fiddler's Green, deliberately took the appearance of G. K. Chesterton when it sojourned on Earth, and seemed to have rather the same personality. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 12:06:29 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> "Experience", time spent alive, and angel promotion... was The Angel of Specialists One of the Sandman characters, >Fiddler's Green, deliberately took the appearance of G. K. Chesterton >when it sojourned on Earth, and seemed to have rather the same >personality. > >Earl Snip Hoom. Indeed. Josh (My collection of Sandman graphic novels is right above my collection of In Nomine books in my book shelf.) And for the obligatory IN tie-in... Has anyone run a scenario in which celestial PCs go out too far into the Far Marches and find themselves facing a very very powerful Dream, who they can't decide is either an Ethereal construct or exactly what he says he is? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 12:27:55 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Dueling Sequels What was Soldier Bob so panicky for? The FIRST thing an Angel explains to new recruits is that if they are good boys and girls they get to go to Heaven when they die. Angels have to. If they don't a Lilim might. Then (after a look in their eyes) the Soldier owes her for calming his fears and the Angel owes her for giving them a better servant. Any demons who object might be pacified with, "Oh? You have the ability to determine his Fate? And making them complacent wasn't helping them towards their Fate?" And, of course, a Lilim could also cut a deal with the Angel for a translation. If a Lilim thought a Hellish faction was getting shafted she could cut a deal with them to see to it that the topic of discussion became known to those who would love to screw things up for Hell. Say, does the Corporeal Song of Tongues translate Helltongue? It lasts for hours and causes no disturbance. "I still don't like this ship. I have a queer feeling about it." Chief Officer (of the Titanic) Henry Wilde, in a letter to his sister. BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:17:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Alternate Factions Maurice Lane wrote: > Ehh. I've always disliked the War/Peace breakdown: > all of the Archangels want to see the end of Hell, > after all. A better dichotemy for Heaven would be > Force / Persuasion: A classic factional division for Heaven would be Justice vs. Mercy. For Hell, an interesting division would be between the World and the Flesh -- that is, between what Dorothy L. Sayers called the "respectable" sins (avarice, envy, pride) that masquerade as virtues, and the "unrespectable" ones (wrath, gluttony, lust) that make a naked appeal to desire. Or between Destruction and Corruption. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:40:21 -0400 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) At 03:07 PM 5/5/02 -0500, you wrote: >William J. Keith wrote: > >>G:IN says, quite explicitly, that the aura is always on and cannot be >>switched off. I'd imagine that such an emphatic statement reflects the >>Attunement's intended state in the original game. > >I'm pretty sure it's intended to be an "always on" attunement. Given how often combat probabally comes up in IN like most roleplaying games (sure, I imagine it's POSSIBLE to have completely non-combat roleplaying games, but in my experience even when they're low violence combat will occasionally pop up), this would render the Seraph of Flowers utterly useless as a PC. Even if you the player want to play a pacifist angel (which can easily find a place in all but the most ultraviolent game), I have SERIOUS qualms with letting someone play something that practically demands everybody else's character be a complete pacifist too! Add in the fact demons with their normally higher Wills would do better against the attunement than most angels, and you've utterly screwed over the players to run things like this with a Seraph of Flowers. No wonder Laurence hates her people; anybody with this attunement is a burden on Heaven more than Hell! I much prefer having the attunement be droppable at will, prevents all sorts of headaches like this. - -- Mike Bruner-- mbruner18@comcast.net Give a hobbit a fish and he eats fish for a day. Give a hobbit a ring and he eats fish for an age. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 18:49:24 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) >Given how often combat probabally comes up in IN like most roleplaying >games (sure, I imagine it's POSSIBLE to have completely non-combat >roleplaying games, but in my experience even when they're low violence >combat will occasionally pop up), this would render the Seraph of Flowers >utterly useless as a PC. Yup. My "high-roleplaying, low-combat" PBEM has had three fights in six game-days. Even if you the player want to play a >pacifist >angel (which can easily find a place in all but the most ultraviolent >game), I have SERIOUS qualms with letting someone play something that >practically demands everybody else's character be a complete pacifist too! Double yup. What I do is simply run the Seraph of Flowers attunement as requiring a will roll for anyone to attack *the Seraph* while in range of the attunement. Anyone can attack anyone else, just not the Seraph. I suspect this attunement wasn't run through playtesting very thoroughly. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:58:27 -0300 From: "vez o'rama" Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) >From: Mike Bruner >Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) >Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:40:21 -0400 >I much prefer having the attunement be droppable at >will, prevents all sorts of headaches like this. Or, you could reduce the attunement resistance to a simple will roll, or change the modifier from the Seraph's total forces to their celestial forces... or something similar. As it is in the core rules book... it's pretty hard to resist :) Not that I'm complaining. When it comes to RPG's I'm a lover, not a fighter :) - - vez _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:59:28 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) Mike Bruner wrote: > Given how often combat probabally comes up in IN like most roleplaying > games (sure, I imagine it's POSSIBLE to have completely non-combat > roleplaying games, but in my experience even when they're low violence > combat will occasionally pop up), this would render the Seraph of Flowers > utterly useless as a PC. No. It would mean that if you want to have a fight, you'll have to keep the Seraph of Flowers out of range. It also means that if you want to have a combative character, you shouldn't play a Seraph of Flowers. > I have SERIOUS qualms with letting someone play something that > practically demands everybody else's character be a complete pacifist too! It doesn't. They can either move out of range or make their Will rolls. > Add in the fact demons with their normally higher Wills would do better I would expect demons to be better at following through on violent impulses. > No wonder > Laurence hates her people; anybody with this attunement is a burden on > Heaven more than Hell! Nonsense. > I much prefer having the attunement be droppable at > will, prevents all sorts of headaches like this. It's _supposed_ to be a headache. Seraphim of Flowers exude peace. It's not supposed to be something they can turn off whenever it would be convenient to let their friends open a can of whoop-ass. - -David ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2624 ********************************