in_nomine-digest Thursday, December 20 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2489 In this digest: IN> And me not knowing any software engineers... Re: IN> A New Soul in Heaven (fiction) Re: IN> Dark Destiny... yeah that's right, not Victory :) RE: IN> A New Soul in Heaven 2 Re: IN> A different Claus [part 2] Re: IN> And me not knowing any software engineers... Re: IN> A New Soul in Heaven 2 IN> A long, lonely mission. Re: IN> Dark Destiny... yeah that's right, not Victory :) Re: IN> The Redeemers Re: IN> And me not knowing any software engineers... Re: IN> The Redeemers Re: IN> A long, lonely mission. Re: IN> And me not knowing any software engineers... Re: IN> And me not knowing any software engineers... Re: IN> And me not knowing any software engineers... Re: IN> A different Claus [part 2] Re: IN> A different Claus... [part 1[ Re: IN> A long, lonely mission. Re: IN> The Redeemers Re: IN> A different Claus [part 2] Re: IN> The Redeemers Re: IN> And me not knowing any software engineers... IN> What the Superiors did at the LOTR screening (SPOILERS) RE: IN> What the Superiors did at the LOTR screening (SPOILERS) RE: IN> What the Superiors did at the LOTR screening (SPOILERS) Re: IN> The Redeemers Re: IN> The Redeemers Re: IN> And me not knowing any software engineers... Re: IN> And me not knowing any software engineers... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:02:27 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> And me not knowing any software engineers... ....because I wouldn't mind playing the below. Blame Beth for bringing up video games in the first place. ;) Moe Demon Hunt Both Heaven and Hell have always worried that, someday, some sort of unambiguous evidence would appear that would reveal the War to the mass of humanity. It's just that nobody ever expected that it would be shrink-wrapped - or available in any computer store with any pretensions towards coolness, for that matter. This unlikely camel's straw is a new video game called Demon Hunt. The premise is fairly straightforward: the protagonist plays a human that goes off on missions to take down an escaped denizen of Hell. Simple enough, and harmless ... theoretically. Unfortunately, the problems with Demon Hunt (from the average celestial's point of view) are convoluted, dangerous and all too concrete. The first problem is that the types of demons involved are instantly obvious to anyone with a fragment of knowledge about the War. It doesn't go so far to use the names Calabim, Habbalah and/or Shedim... but calling them 'Entropies', 'Whippers' and 'Slavers' isn't fooling anybody in the know. Worse and worse, they act like their inspirations. Whoever wrote the code for this one either had extensive experience with all three types of Infernals or else managed to grab the War Faction's training manuals on the recognition of same, or possibly both. The second problem? This game is sharp. The code is clean, elegant, with no bugs. The soundtrack kicks serious ass, you'd swear that the AI engine is actually thinking, the various boards are well designed and tricky and the action is fast and furious - - and that's just the freeware version. The full game offers a multi-player option and a plethora of missions, ranging from standard 'shoot everything that moves' to 'search and contain the one Slaver in an airport without anyone else noticing'. In other words, it's almost physically addictive. With the above two problems in mind, the third one almost pales in comparison. Almost. It would seem that the designer apparently had managed to 'borrow' some reference materials from Jean, as well as from Michael or Laurence. There's a lot of gadgets available that can detect, kill and/or capture demons, and most of them have direct analogues to items that Lightning has been quietly sitting on for the last few decades 'until the time is right'. The revelation of this has notably increased the noise level in Council meetings lately: the War Faction has been not quite politely inquiring why they weren't told about these fun new toys, at least, and they haven't been liking the answers. In short, Demon Hunt, despite the soundtrack (which has not yet revealed any sort of hidden metaphysical meaning, despite constant playing by dedicated researchers), has the potential to be one of the most useful demon-hunting tools Heaven's ever seen - and it retails for $39.95. Unfortunately, eventually someone's going to put two and two together and come up with 'Hey! These buggers are actually wandering around!' - then proceed to post this epiphany on every computer board that he or she can access. This will be bad. The last thing anybody needs is even a distorted version of the Truth out there. Hell doesn't want to be shot at and too many of Heaven's defense strategies require a human populace that won't joggle their collective elbows. This, of course, will explain neatly why the PCs get involved. A little back-story seems appropriate, here. Obviously, either disaffected Servitors of Lightning or Technology are up to their eyebrows in this problem: astoundingly, the obvious answer is perfectly correct. In fact, it's the fault of disaffected Servitors of Lightning and Technology. You see, once upon a time there was a certain Outcast Ofanite of Lightning (Camiel) who got that way from arguing one too many times that the Archangel of Lightning's policy of suppressing anti-demonic devices among humans, well, sucked. Normally, Jean probably would have just reassigned the Servitor, but it really isn't a good idea to give even an Elohite Superior the finger. At any rate, while wandering around Camiel ran into Mariel (no relation), Renegade Lilim of Technology. Mariel's own revolt against the system wasn't nearly as ideologically based as Camiel's: she just liked being Queen of the Geeks too much to want to bother with corrupting any of them. Her innate ability to epitomize the sleepless nighttime fantasies of every computer nerd out there wired to like girls was netting her a much more fulfilling life than working in some stupid Infernal lab would, after all. Alas, Vapula disagreed. The Lilim was trying to quietly gather enough cash to decamp to greener pastures when she ran into (literally) the Ofanite. It was a match made in somewhere: both Camiel and Mariel are wizard computer programmers, and they more or less hit it off from the start. Camiel wanted to get humanity to be prepared for the inevitable day that the War went public, Mariel wanted lots and lots of cash - and both were in agreement that anything that screwed over Calabim, Habbalah and Shedim was a meritorious act in and of itself. Demon Hunt was the eventual result. A mass posting of the freeware version (coupled with the successful pitching of the product - via an otherwise worthless cutout - to one of the few software companies not even slightly influenced by the Media) followed. Then the two packed their laptops and got the Hell out of Dodge. Finding the authors of this little unfolding disaster may be somewhat difficult: they both know damn well that people will be looking for them, and they have no intention of making the exercise easy. Tracking the cash will end at the cutout: from there, it will take a certain amount of digging, legwork and judicious resonance use to follow the trail, 'aided' no doubt by the various other entities looking for the pair. Bear in mind, of course, that the other teams may not have the same aim in mind as the party. Eventually, dedicated searchers will find the pair comfortably ensconced on a very nice tropical beach, sipping tropical drinks and idly watching the horizon like a couple of paranoid-yet-contented hawks. It all depends on who catches up with them first, you see. Michael would be optimal, followed by Nybbas, Janus and, oddly enough, Furfur - though the last that might just because of the secret levels. You see, there's a boss level where you get to go up against (and eventually extinguish) a really ugly Entropy covered in flames... ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/13/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:24:28 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> A New Soul in Heaven (fiction) From: "Vaughn Romero" > > Turning finally to me, the serpent spoke, "Welcome to > Heaven blessed one, already you serve us well." Excellent work. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 07:08:36 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Dark Destiny... yeah that's right, not Victory :) - --- toadpooka@juno.com wrote: > If the sample Destiny given did say "kill > 12 Hellsworn in their sleep," I'd side with you, but this > was "kill 12 PEOPLE." That's basically anyone. I'd chalk that one up to a mistake of writing and/or editing (sorry, Beth!). That really should've been more specific. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "A lot of comedy is tragedy plus time." -- Carol Burnett __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:26:24 -0500 From: "Brook Freeman" Subject: RE: IN> A New Soul in Heaven 2 > P.S. Anyone else notice that plot and a 10k limit do necessarily > go hand in > hand? > You could do what David did with the Redeemers post. Write it all up, put it on the web, post it in 10k chunks and include a link for those of us that wish to read sooner. Brook ps understand the trying to get it all together to post. I have ideas that need polishing, well they actually need to get written down first, before posting as well. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:55:28 -0800 From: "Brian Rogers" Subject: Re: IN> A different Claus [part 2] Um, not wanting to nitpick, but Forces max out at 6, stats max out at 12. Sorry. Rev. Brian - -----Original Message----- From: "Rolland Therrien" Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:32:20 -0500 To: "In Nomine Mailing List" Subject: IN> A different Claus [part 2] > > Corporeal 7 Strength 16 Agility 12 > Ethereal 5 Intelligence 8 Precision 12 > Celestial 6 Willpower 14 Perception 10 > Vessels: Jolly fat guy in a red suit/3 Kindly old woman/2 (in Italy) - -- _______________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup 1 cent a minute calls anywhere in the U.S.! http://www.getpennytalk.com/cgi-bin/adforward.cgi?p_key=RG9853KJ&url=http://www.getpennytalk.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:05:09 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> And me not knowing any software engineers... Maurice Lane wrote: > In short, Demon Hunt, despite the soundtrack (which > has not yet revealed any sort of hidden metaphysical > meaning, despite constant playing by dedicated > researchers), has the potential to be one of the most > useful demon-hunting tools Heaven's ever seen How? > retails for $39.95. Unfortunately, eventually > someone's going to put two and two together and come > up with 'Hey! These buggers are actually wandering > around!' - then proceed to post this epiphany on every > computer board that he or she can access. I'm not seeing how this is a problem. There are already people who believe in real angels and demons, and anyone who posts that characters from a computer game represent real celestial spirits will be laughed at. This won't change just because one particular game happens to depict real demons. So maybe a few celestials will find it embarrassing, but without proof, how is the game going to have a significant effect on the human populace? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:15:23 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> A New Soul in Heaven 2 Brook Freeman wrote: > You could do what David did with the Redeemers post. Write it all up, put> it on the web, post it in 10k chunks and include a link for those of us that> wish to read sooner. > Actually, I didn't post any 10K chunks, just the intro followed by a link to the rest. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:32:20 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> A long, lonely mission. > Why? Worst case scenario is, it's just a broken > Tsayadim trapped in an eternal, internal hell. I say, > whack it a couple times to make sure that it's fitting > on there nice and tight.* > *Sorry: I never react well to those guys at the best > of times, > ;) > > Moe No? ========================================= He had winced as the champagne bottle had smashed against the side of the ship; wished that someone else had been assigned this mission. That was why he had been chosen, of course. As the ship travelled down the slipway, his gaze turned to the ship builder's daughter, who was excitedly watching the ship settle in the water. That helped. It helped a lot, actually - it reminded him why he had chosen to join Heaven. Why, as a dissonant, broken Impudite, he had chosen to seek Redemption - and chosen to serve the one Archangel who could make the world a better place. Hell hadn't been that bad, he mused. Other angels would be horrified to hear him say that, but it was true. He had never doubted himself, nor his Superior while in Hell. It had all made sense: a twisted perverted sense, but sense all the same. Hell was evil, but intelligently evil. He had been sent to the Corporeal to corrupt humanity, draw them into Hell's waiting arms. It was a task he had enjoyed, had been good at, had felt pride at being good at - still did, actually...something he which worried him. Could that result in him Falling? Perhaps - that was just one reason why he had chosen to remain True. He reached out with his resonance to touch the girl, felt the complicated web of relationships in which she nestled - the love for & from her father; of her mother, standing behind her: that was a complicated relationship, a mix of joy and pride and nostalgia - nostalgia? But of course, no doubt mother had launched a ship herself, many years ago. So... 'We didn't save your life, little one...much more than that. We saved your mother's. You would never have been born at all. That bottle is the memory of a much older custom - one that died under our blades. I remember the fleets sent to invade this island, sixteen centuries ago. I watched, helplessly, as ship after ship was launched onto these waters: and each time a child died under the keel. Each child who died - who I could have saved, if I'd tried - drove me madder, until I sought out Uriel, sought to be made Pure; and to Purify the world. To destroy the parasites, who wastefully used and abused humanity; whose actions could revolt a Hellborn demon. We were winning, once. People could understand. But those we defend have turned against us. Those 'quaint customs' that humans cherish are the memories of a bloody past, one that they would bring back if they could. Deep in The Marches, tiny spirits exist: waiting. "Spare them!" fools cry, as the helpless tiny spirit looks appealingly to them. How long will you spare it? Until it has waxed strong, and can demand the return of the original custom? Demand the blood sacrifice is considers to be its due? Hateful, they call us, as they fuss over the cute, harmless creatures that still infest The Marches. Cute & Harmless? Yes - for we made them that way. They are as much the children of the Tsayadim as they are of humanity - for we have culled them, destroying the worst, sparing the best; that is why your cute little ethereal exists: we spared it. No great virtue, you think, to spare a life? But remember, we also saved it's life: it would have been eaten long ago by the monsters of the Marches, if we did not patrol, slaying the evil beasts. Everything it has, it owes to us - and as thanks it teaches humans to hate us.' He sighed. Exile was a terrible punishment for a Mercurian; to lose old friendships, to be cut off from the chance of new ones. The mental rant came all too easily. Still, the sea trip would be entertaining. They would cross the equator - and those foolish sailors would want to invoke "Neptune's Wrath" at the deed. He smiled. They could try. He had spent years acquiring this Role as a Lawyer, and it would be well spent, punishing the mortal's love of hurting and humiliating one another for the sport of their gods. As for the fools who had acquired Worship Rites for Neptune - those he would detect; and they would be watched, for the Tsayadim still sought Neptune's head. With a strange sad look on his face, he strode down the pier, to board the ship. ====================================================== Cheers, James. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:30:55 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Dark Destiny... yeah that's right, not Victory :) At 01:08 AM 12/10/01 -0600, you wrote: >This is true, but shouldn't the Destiny/Fate say who those people have to >be in order for it to count? If the sample Destiny given did say "kill >12 Hellsworn in their sleep," I'd side with you, but this was "kill 12 >PEOPLE." That's basically anyone. Divine Destiny and Fated Future are not Fair Witnesses (sorry, Robert). They don't have to tell you everything about somebody's destiny or fate - in fact, using them is parting the veil of what's supposed to be complete ineffability - and they're not going to. The examples in LS, if I'm remembering correctly, are meant to be samples of what you could possibly get if someone used Divine Destiny. So an angel of Yves looking at someone might get "save a corporation from bankruptcy", "die defending what they feel is right"... or "kill 12 people in their sleep". (No, those aren't actual examples from LS; I don't have the book with me.) None of them are particularly specific, and in a way that's the point; the less specific Yves is about what a person's future is going to be, the less chance you have to interfere with it. So yes; "kill 12 people in their sleep" is positive, if nothing else than by definition because destinies *are* positive. (The highest pinnacle a person will achieve, remember?) Vague, yes - but positive. Hope that helps. - -EDG It's not like he gets to *choose* which 12 people are going to fulfill his destiny. "Okay, I want to kill *you*, and *you*, and *you*... now go to sleep. Don't worry, I'm doing good here." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:50:14 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Redeemers An interesting group. Is there an infernal counterpart, the Seducers? Or Recruiters? Are any demons without a destiny? Irredeemable? (Or, what would be the same thing, do any have a destiny something like "Get soul-killed before doing any more harm"?) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 07:35:11 +0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> And me not knowing any software engineers... > >I'm not seeing how this is a problem. There are already people who >believe in real angels and demons, and anyone who posts that characters >from a computer game represent real celestial spirits will be laughed >at. This won't change just because one particular game happens to depict >real demons. So maybe a few celestials will find it embarrassing, but >without proof, how is the game going to have a significant effect on the >human populace? > Tell you what would be more fun. Let's say that Asmodeus realises that there are plenty of humans who are more talented games players than any demon could be, and probably more twisted too. So when he wants to imprison and torture a particularly knotty renegade, he dusts off v3.6 of Demon Keeper, a fantastically addictive Dungeon Keeper knock-off that is mystically attached to a _real_ prison in Hades. A minion is despatched to put this game in the hands of those who will use it, and after giving such mortals a few hours to familiarise themselves with the game, the link is turned *on* The object of Demon Keeper is to build a dungeon, keep out intruders, and keep your subject demon in a mental state of pain, torture, confusion, and panic. It's quite fun. jo _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:00:56 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> The Redeemers > >Are any demons without a destiny? Irredeemable? Officially, I believe the destiny of all demons is to redeem, and the fate of angels is to Fall. Therefore, every demon has a destiny. - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:58:15 +0100 From: "Donato Ranzato" Subject: Re: IN> A long, lonely mission. From: "james walker" > He had winced as the champagne bottle had smashed against the side of the > ship; wished that someone else had been assigned this mission. [snip] Nice story. It is good to read a story from the viewpoint of a Tsayadite (sp?) as it shows that they don't need to be the ruthless killers most celestials picture them. Donato ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:51:10 +0100 From: "Donato Ranzato" Subject: Re: IN> And me not knowing any software engineers... From: "Maurice Lane" > This unlikely camel's straw is a new video game called > Demon Hunt. The premise is fairly straightforward: > the protagonist plays a human that goes off on > missions to take down an escaped denizen of Hell. > Simple enough, and harmless ... theoretically. > Unfortunately, the problems with Demon Hunt (from the > average celestial's point of view) are convoluted, > dangerous and all too concrete. What about the added feature in the game that when an angel plays it he can choose a character that reflects his Choir? So, when an Ofanite plays it he can choose a character that is very fast, a Malakite starts of with a flaming sword, a Kyrio can switch between multiple characters in-game etc. Maybe the game also features some very familiar looking superiors in the cut scenes that brief the character before he enters the next level? Donato ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:26:21 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> And me not knowing any software engineers... - --- David Edelstein wrote: > Maurice Lane wrote: > I'm not seeing how this is a problem. There are > already people who > believe in real angels and demons, and anyone who > posts that characters > from a computer game represent real celestial > spirits will be laughed > at. This won't change just because one particular > game happens to depict > real demons. So maybe a few celestials will find it > embarrassing, but > without proof, how is the game going to have a > significant effect on the > human populace? I think that you're not taking into account the fact that in the IN canon world, there actually *are* demons and angels running around, eating pizza and Smiting the Foe while maintaining a millennia-old secret War. Now, in our world (which notably lacks this situation, in my opinion) anybody who posts with 'proof' of the existence of an actual 'demon' is going to be laughed at eventually, because they're almost certainly going to be wrong. Hey, I'm a Catholic, and _I_ don't believe in demonic possession - or angelic possession, either, now that I think of it. If they exist, they exist as metaphysical constructs with no physical component (handily explains the lack of evidence, no?). In *our* world: the IN version of it obviously isn't quite so lucky. Call me a sappy, idealistic fool if you like, but I tend to believe that revealing a conspiracy is much easier to do if it actually exists. If you can do so by teaching an entire generation of American males to recognize the traits of three types of demons, so much the better.* :) Moe *That's the long version. Short version is, so what if it doesn't short-circuit the war? I just wanted somebody to rip off my idea and actually make a real video game out of it... ;) ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/13/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:31:36 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> And me not knowing any software engineers... - --- Jo Hart wrote: > Tell you what would be more fun. Let's say that > Asmodeus realises that there > are plenty of humans who are more talented games > players than any demon > could be, and probably more twisted too. > > The object of Demon Keeper is to build a dungeon, > keep out intruders, and > keep your subject demon in a mental state of pain, > torture, confusion, and > panic. It lacks the purity and clarity of ultraviolence in public places, and you wouldn't be able to play a female with huge polygons, slit skirts and a high-kicking ability, but I could see the fun in this.* OK, that makes THREE IN-themed video games that I want to play... ;) Moe *So would a lot of angels. I could see this being a bar game in the Eighth Virtue... ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/13/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:20:55 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> A different Claus [part 2] - --- Rolland Therrien wrote: > Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus... And he kicks > Demon @$$... That line alone was worth reading the whole thing through. Thanks, dude! ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "A lot of comedy is tragedy plus time." -- Carol Burnett __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:22:59 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> A different Claus... [part 1[ - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > The forces of Good WILL track you down, someday. You > understand that, right? HAH! They'll never take me alive! ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "A lot of comedy is tragedy plus time." -- Carol Burnett __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:29:32 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> A long, lonely mission. OK, this seems to be the week for eerie Xmas posts. Nicely done, though. And thanks for the info on the rite for launching a ship; I was not aware of the origin of the custom. What's the source for that? ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "A lot of comedy is tragedy plus time." -- Carol Burnett __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:32:31 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Redeemers - --- Bevan Thomas wrote: > Officially, I believe the destiny of all demons is to > redeem, and the fate > of angels is to Fall. Therefore, every demon has a > destiny. I think it's more complicated than that, but an angel's Fate could certainly include Falling while a demon's Destiny would probably include Redemption. It's more likely, IMHO, that Falling and Redemption are preconditions for Celestials meeting their Fates or Destinies, respectively. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "A lot of comedy is tragedy plus time." -- Carol Burnett __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:47:52 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> A different Claus [part 2] From: "Rolland Therrien" > > Corporeal 7 Strength 16 Agility 12 Max forces are 6, just so you know. > Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus... And he kicks Demon @$$... This made me laugh. A lot. Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:46:11 +0100 From: "Robin Gilijamse" Subject: Re: IN> The Redeemers > I think it's more complicated than that, but an angel's > Fate could certainly include Falling while a demon's > Destiny would probably include Redemption. It's more > likely, IMHO, that Falling and Redemption are preconditions > for Celestials meeting their Fates or Destinies, respectively. I thought that Destiny and Fate were typical of mortals, and that Celestials couldn't have any. The whole idea is that humans have free will and are able to choose (though mostly not consciously) between Destiny and Fate, while celestials are in their choices by what they are. And when an angel dies, he won't go to heaven, right? Robin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:54:12 +0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> And me not knowing any software engineers... > >*So would a lot of angels. I could see this being a >bar game in the Eighth Virtue... > Dunno. Would angels want to punish renegades, or potentially free them or talk to them (there's no legal patch that allows THAT to happen)? (Although even Kobal would see the funny side in doctoring the game so that the 'demon' that appeared on screen was actually a captive angel, and then slipping a copy of the game to the angel's friends under false pretences.) jo _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:16:15 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: IN> What the Superiors did at the LOTR screening (SPOILERS) And now that I've seen it, I can go back and strafe the survivors again... This one has spoilers. You were warned. x x x x x x x x x x x x x x Asmodeus -- "Movie? What movie? I haven't gotten out of this office in months." Baal -- "Note to self. Talk to Vapula about ordering some of those Uruk-Hai. *Damn*, they were good! Need a few touch-ups, but I *like* their style." Belial -- "The big bad guy! He's like just a giant eye! Who's ON FIRE! And the other bad guy, they're like cutting down and BURNING ALL THE TREES! And the Balrog! Oh dear Lucifer, the BALROG! He's MADE out of fire! And... and the fire sword! And the fire whip! And he KILLED THE GOOD GUY! Gotta get me a new Vessel, gotta get me a Vessel..." Alaemon -- "No, I'm not going to ruin the surprise for Belial. And here I had the whole world thinking Liv Tyler was going to be the problem! HA! The Cate Blanchett surprise skunked 'em all!" Beleth -- *sulk* *pout* *whine* "Such a *nice* nightmare, ruined by all that hope and refusal to give up. And I just can't STAND those... arrghhh... *CUTE*... little... hobbits! Ah well. At least I have that lovely sketch of Barad-Dur. And you know, the old tower /does/ need a remake after 20,000 years or so..." "And at least the video stores are promoting Bakshi's animated version again to try and cash in. *No* Tolkien fan can watch that thing without nightmares." Daisy -- "I loved the hobbits! They were just so cutesy-wutesy and roundy and cuddlesome! But there wasn't enough singing! Didn't that nice cartoon version have lots of happy singing?" Kobal -- "Not the beard! Not the beard! Oh, and nice eyes of a hawk and hearing of a cat!" Malphas -- "Did you /see/ what it did to the Council of Elrond? And then they start trying to rob and kill each other by the river? Oh, that's it, got to get me one of those Rings..." Nybbas (snarling) -- "DON'T. MENTION. THAT... *THING*!" (ping! "You've got mail!") Marc (via e-mail) -- "Hey, we had a deal! You got "Harry Potter", and we got "Lord Of The Rings". And I even let you go first! Is it my fault that you just suck?" Michael -- "I just know that Baal's ordering Uruk-Hai right about now. Typical. Didn't he notice that they /lost/? Good fight, I'll admit, but they bit it. No, my new Vessel does /not/ look like Aragorn. That's Laurence's new Vessel." Laurence -- "*ahem*. The resemblance is purely coincidental. And where was Narsil? The re-forging of the Blade That Was Broken is a /very/ important plot point. Still... DID YOU SEE THAT FIGHT CHOREOGRAPHY! WOW! And you already know that I'm just the world's biggest fan of classical heroic epics. Well, me and Michael." Novalis -- "Oh dear. *sigh*. Saruman, if I didn't already know what your karma had in store for you, the destruction of Isengard would have me very, very cross. *Very* cross. *sigh*. "And they took out that lovely scene with Sam's box! Ah well, just hold on a little longer and I'll get to see Fangorn, and the Ents, and the flowering of the Shire. And weren't those battle scenes just the coolest? "Oops." /blush/ "Nothing! Didn't say a thing!" David -- "Gimli." *nods grimly* "Good. Great pity about Boromir, though. Tragic loss." Zadkiel (waves sword, does Arwen pose) -- "If you want him, come and claim him!" (weary voice from O.S.) -- "Zadkiel, honestly, it's been a whole /day/..." - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:01:12 -0500 From: "Brook Freeman" Subject: RE: IN> What the Superiors did at the LOTR screening (SPOILERS) > Daisy -- "I loved the hobbits! They were just so cutesy-wutesy > and roundy > and cuddlesome! But there wasn't enough singing! Didn't that > nice cartoon > version have lots of happy singing?" ok I have to ask DP Daisy of ?? is there a write up somewhere? Brook ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:11:14 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: RE: IN> What the Superiors did at the LOTR screening (SPOILERS) >From: "Brook Freeman" >Subject: RE: IN> What the Superiors did at the LOTR screening (SPOILERS) >Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:01:12 -0500 >ok I have to ask DP Daisy of ?? is there a write up somewhere? Daisy is Moe's entirely non-canonical Habbalite "Archangel" of Cheerfulness. http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine/superiors/Daisy.htm - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:49:16 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> The Redeemers At 03:46 PM 12/20/01 +0100, you wrote: >I thought that Destiny and Fate were typical of mortals, and that Celestials >couldn't have any. The whole idea is that humans have free will and are able >to choose (though mostly not consciously) between Destiny and Fate, while >celestials are in their choices by what they are. And when an angel dies, he >won't go to heaven, right? In point of fact, that's where most angels who die on the corporeal plane *do* go - and they get there a lot quicker than a lot of humans. Likewise, most demons who die on the corporeal plane go to Hell. On the other hand, IIRC, if you kill a human soul on the celestial plane, it does exactly what a celestial soul would do - gets destroyed utterly. As for your first point, the Free Will point is (I believe) Canon Doubt and Uncertainty. Nobody (save perhaps God and a few select Archangels) knows whether anybody has free will or not, including demons and angels. However, one of the major points in favor of free will is an angel's ability to Fall, or a demon's ability to Redeem. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:07:24 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Redeemers Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > An interesting group. Is there an infernal counterpart, the > Seducers? Or Recruiters? Haven't thought of that one. Coming up with an inter-Principality infernal Order is a little harder, since it's less likely that Demon Princes would let their Servitors join a group that isn't completely under their control. I can imagine several Princes might assign demons to trying to make angels Fall; perhaps some of them might cooperate on joint projects. > Are any demons without a destiny? Irredeemable? (Or, what would > be the same thing, do any have a destiny something like "Get soul-killed> before doing any more harm"?) I think if there were, you'd basically be coming out for predestination, which would take the "free will" question out of the realm of CDaU... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:11:38 -0500 From: "Robb Kidd" Subject: Re: IN> And me not knowing any software engineers... Maurice Lane wrote: > It lacks the purity and clarity of ultraviolence in > public places, and you wouldn't be able to play a > female with huge polygons, slit skirts and a > high-kicking ability, but I could see the fun in > this.* Maybe it's that I've been playing it too much at the fire station, but I can clearly see Demon Hunt playing out much like Grand Theft Auto 3[1]. Mmm ... Yummy. [1] Which is obviously a Media/Theft collaborative venture. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:28:07 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> And me not knowing any software engineers... Maurice Lane wrote: > I think that you're not taking into account the fact > that in the IN canon world, there actually *are* > demons and angels running around, eating pizza and > Smiting the Foe while maintaining a millennia-old > secret War. Yes. And so some computer game portrays them accurately, as opposed to all the computer games who portray them inaccurately. Who's going to believe it, and who's going to care? > In *our* world: the IN version of it obviously isn't > quite so lucky. Call me a sappy, idealistic fool if > you like, but I tend to believe that revealing a > conspiracy is much easier to do if it actually exists. > If you can do so by teaching an entire generation of > American males to recognize the traits of three types > of demons, so much the better.* :) I guess there's a small chance someone who's played the game might run across a real Habbalite and say "Hey! That guy acts just like a 'Punisher' from that computer game!" I still just don't see how this would make a difference. - -David ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2489 ********************************