in_nomine-digest Tuesday, November 6 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2431 In this digest: Re: IN> More Songs of Convenience Re: IN> Hey, I'm still alive and coming up with stuff. Fancythat. Re: IN> Hey, I'm still alive and coming up with stuff. Fancythat. Re: IN> More Songs of Convenience Re: IN> Hey, I'm still alive and coming up with stuff. Fancythat. Re: IN> Hey, I'm still alive and coming up with stuff. Fancy that. Re: IN> The Obligatory Hello Re: IN> Hey, I'm still alive and coming up with stuff. Fancy that. Re: IN> Hey, I'm still alive and coming up with stuff. Fancythat. IN> Angels of Stone -- dissonance Re: IN> Hey, I'm still alive and coming up with stuff. Fancythat. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 12:23:24 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: Re: IN> More Songs of Convenience Partly for pleasure, and partly to annoy people who don't like Variants: The Song of Payment. This variant on the Celestial Song of Succor was developed by one of Mesarach's Servitors. Celestial: This Song can only be performed when the target claims to be too lazy/comfortable/exhausted to do a task, and accepts the performer's offer to complete the task. The Song requires no essence; instead if the performer completes the task, they will gain the target's next daily essence (whenever it should occur). The target gets a Will roll to resist, at a penalty equal to the CD. Lilim get a affiliation bonus, of course. Much as I LIKE the Songs of Convenience, anyone with the essence to spend on them needs fleecing! :-) Cheers, James. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:37:39 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Hey, I'm still alive and coming up with stuff. Fancythat. james walker wrote: > However, for a demon to enter a region completely controlled by Heaven is> aggression; No, it's not. You have no way of knowing what the demon's motive is. Maybe he wants to redeem? Maybe he's a stupid demon who's unaware of Heaven's control of the area? Or maybe he DOES have aggressive intent...but Davidians still need to wait until the demon actually initiates it. If David doesn't think it's OK to attack a demon just for being a demon, the fact that the demon is entering a Heavenly area doesn't make it OK. > A demon wandering through Volvograd is a) spying Not striking first. > and b) looking for> a fight; Not striking first until he does so. > the Trogs shouldn't need to wait, any more than they need to wait> while a demon assembles a machinegun. Yes, they do. (Actually, it wouldn't be dissonant for them to take defensive measures, such as, say, stealing the machine gun, but it WOULD be dissonant to attack someone on the _assumption_ that he's about to attack you...even if the assumption is probably correct.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 13:34:34 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: Re: IN> Hey, I'm still alive and coming up with stuff. Fancythat. - ---------- >From: David Edelstein > james walker wrote: >> the Trogs shouldn't need to wait, any more than they need to wait> while > a demon assembles a machinegun. > > Yes, they do. "That doesn't mean that they have to stand helplessly by their attuned while the enemy loads their AK-47s" S1, p26. >> However, for a demon to enter a region completely controlled by Heaven > is> aggression; > > No, it's not. You have no way of knowing what the demon's motive is. Why not? The only choir who cannot work out motives using their resonance are the Ofanim - and in a city controlled by Heaven, any demon entering town is going to be targeted by every available resonance - it's not like they don't have time, after all. James. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 10:40:32 -0500 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> More Songs of Convenience These were great! Thanks Moe for cheering me up. Its been a rather gloomy morning. :-) Jeffery _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:15:54 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Hey, I'm still alive and coming up with stuff. Fancythat. At 1:34 PM +1100 11/6/01, james walker wrote: >---------- > >From: David Edelstein > > james walker wrote: > > >> the Trogs shouldn't need to wait, any more than they need to wait> while > > a demon assembles a machinegun. > > > > Yes, they do. >"That doesn't mean that they have to stand helplessly by their attuned while >the enemy loads their AK-47s" S1, p26. They don't. They can (as David said) steal the gun. Or they can get their attuned to Tanziers. Or they can sing Corporeal Shields. Or they can sing Celestial Tongues and send a message to their friend the Malakite of the Wind for backup.... They just can't *attack.* >Why not? The only choir who cannot work out motives using their resonance >are the Ofanim - and in a city controlled by Heaven, any demon entering town >is going to be targeted by every available resonance - it's not like they >don't have time, after all. Which makes perfect sense. And the moment they're able to determine violent intent, they can send down a gang of fifteen Stone Ofanim and Malakim, who in turn can surround the demon and walk with him until he leaves or is stupid enough to try something. But they can't can't can't can't *can't* make a preemptive strike without Dissonance. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Impudite of Secrets -- or Mercurian of Revelation (candidate for the Word of Obscurity) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:09:19 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Hey, I'm still alive and coming up with stuff. Fancy that. At 11:56 AM +1100 11/6/01, james walker wrote: >However, for a demon to enter a region completely controlled by Heaven is >aggression; just as if a 'completely peaceful' army happens to enter your >nation. A demon wandering through Volvograd is a) spying and b) looking for >a fight; the Trogs shouldn't need to wait, any more than they need to wait >while a demon assembles a machinegun. Actually, they do need to wait while a demon assembles a machine gun. And they do need to wait if a demon is wandering Volvograd. I can accept that the establishment of a Demonic Tether is seen as aggressive, but just wandering through wouldn't be. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Impudite of Secrets -- or Mercurian of Revelation (candidate for the Word of Obscurity) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:10:23 -0600 From: toadpooka@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> The Obligatory Hello Thanks for the input, everyone (especially the tips on blackmailing God). I'm planning to use a lot of what I heard, and I should probably get FT at some point.... From Whom It May Concern, Rich Ranallo "Rock and Roll will be the new planetary culture, believe it or not." - -Prof. Michio Kaku ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:23:31 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Hey, I'm still alive and coming up with stuff. Fancy that. At 11:56 AM +1100 11/6/01, james walker wrote: [...] >However, for a demon to enter a region completely controlled by Heaven is >aggression; just as if a 'completely peaceful' army happens to enter your >nation. A demon wandering through Volvograd is a) spying and b) looking for >a fight; the Trogs shouldn't need to wait, any more than they need to wait >while a demon assembles a machinegun. Though they really need to resonate the demon first. It might be... A: seeking sanctuary, hoping for redemption B: seeking sanctuary, hoping the Game won't follow it into the area C: lost D: passing through as quickly as possible for other reasons E: new enough to Earth that it doesn't _realize_ it's entered an area of Stone Tethers (just this real noisy place...) F: totally deluded (read: Habbalite) and sincerely hoping for some kind of "alliance" G: Something I can't think of off the top of my head... So I can see the attempt to create circumstances favorable to a Hell- Tether as counting for "attack." But a demon who seems to be minding its own business is a more dubious target. Though, of course, having a BIG Stone Kyriotate possess the demon's vessel, walk it outside the city limits, and release it is hardly "hitting first," either. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:26:53 -0500 From: damienw@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Hey, I'm still alive and coming up with stuff. Fancythat. On Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:15:54 -0500 Whistling in the Dark writes: > Which makes perfect sense. And the moment they're able to determine > violent intent, they can send down a gang of fifteen Stone Ofanim > and > Malakim, who in turn can surround the demon and walk with him until > he leaves or is stupid enough to try something. > > But they can't can't can't can't *can't* make a preemptive strike > without Dissonance. Of course, for the purposes of Stalingrad, the difference is small. Doubtless David allows enough non-Stone angels in the city as a supplementary force (Just because Stone does not strike first doesn't mean Stone can't recognize the importance and ability of *others* striking first) and there are, as said, enough Tethers for lesser Stone angels to become Dissonant in emergencies. I imagine MOST Infernals know better by now, anyway. - --- damienw[et]juno.com "To kill a man between panels is to condemn him to a thousand deaths." - Scott McCloud ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 14:23:38 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Angels of Stone -- dissonance > james walker wrote: > Yes, they do. > "That doesn't mean that they have to stand helplessly > by their attuned whilethe enemy loads their AK-47s" > S1, p26. Correct. They can threaten the enemy. They can take away their guns. They can get their attuned out of there. They can interpose themselves between their attuned and the enemy. But they cannot strike first, period. Even when it's obvious that the enemy is about to attack, angels of Stone can take whatever preparatory/and or defensive measures they like, but they CANNOT launch a preemptive strike. "The best defense is a good offense" is NOT a Davidian saying. > No, it's not. You have no way of knowing what the demon's motive is. > Why not? The only choir who cannot work out motives using their resonanceare the Ofanim The point is that angels of Stone cannot attack first based on what they assume someone is going to do. They can't even attack first based on what they KNOW someone is going to do. They can do things to prepare for or prevent the intended action (like forming a circle around the wandering demon, sharpening their knives and waiting for him to give one of them a push...), but they CANNOT strike first. It's that simple; no rules-lawyering to justify a first strike is allowed. You cannot define likely or intended actions on the part of the enemy as "attacking first." You cannot define actions by the enemy that are malicious in intent and designed to facilitate a later attack as "attacking first." Aggressive intent is not attacking first. A 99.9999999% certainty that someone is about to attack does not mean they have attacked first -- the angel of Stone still has to wait for the actual attack before he can strike back. If a demon points a loaded gun at an angel of Stone's head and says "I am about to blow your brains out," the angel of Stone may not attack him without suffering dissonance. He can move away, he can snatch the gun, he can sing a Song of Shields, he can draw his own gun and point it at the demon, he can ask his buddy the angel of War to stomp the demon, but he CANNOT strike first. From a philosophical point of view, and in keeping with David's principles, angels of Stone might look at it this way: Even in the case of the demon pointing a gun at you and declaring his clear intention of attacking, there is an infinitesimal chance that in the last instant before he commits himself, he will chance his mind. Perhaps even that the spirit of the Divine will fill his heart and make him want to redeem. Improbable? Yes. Impossible? David NEVER gives up on someone unless he as no choice. That doesn't mean his Servitors have to be stupid. They can acknowledge that the chances of a demon who's clearly about to attack spontaneously undergoing a change of heart are pretty damn small, and thus prepare for the attack and ready a counterstrike. But they CANNOT strike first. Period. Stone waits. Stone has infinite patience. Stone allows others to commit themselves. Stone will point out the folly of their actions and demonstrate the inevitable consequences. And even when it's obvious that they are about to do something stupid and pointless (like attacking Stone), Stone allows them every possible opportunity to change their minds. And after they have committed themselves and eliminated all doubt, Stone acts, with finality. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 21:19:18 +0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Hey, I'm still alive and coming up with stuff. Fancythat. >From: David Edelstein >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Hey, I'm still alive and coming up with stuff. Fancythat. >Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:37:39 -0600 > >james walker wrote: > > However, for a demon to enter a region completely controlled by Heaven >is> aggression; > >No, it's not. You have no way of knowing what the demon's motive is. >Maybe he wants to redeem? Maybe he's a stupid demon who's unaware of >Heaven's control of the area I doubt there is anywhere on Earth (apart from some divine tethers) that is _completely_ controlled by Heaven, in any case. What sort of weirdass town would have no infernal tethers (none, nada, etc.)? I remember when I made some notes about IN Paris we thought about it, but Paris wouldn't be Paris without tethers to Lust, Gluttony, and The Game. I mean, are the angels also going to go hunt down any evil humans in 'their' town? jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2431 ********************************