in_nomine-digest Friday, January 18 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2518 In this digest: Re: IN> In opposition: Part 2 Grafitti Vs Vandalism - Nilaihah IN> Weird News IN> Succubi, a Minor Band IN> Dodanim, the Passions, a minor Choir IN> Seven Lovely Sins Re: IN> Khalid's Choir Re: IN> Khalid's Choir IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2517 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2517 Re: IN> Khalid's Choir Re: IN> Defending Khalid as Elohim Re: IN> In opposition: Part 2 Grafitti Vs Vandalism - Nilaihah Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2517 Re: IN> In opposition: Part 2 Grafitti Vs Vandalism - Nilaihah Re: IN> Khalid's Choir Re: IN> Seven Lovely Sins Re: IN> Defending Khalid as Elohim RE: IN> Khalid's Choir Re: IN> Re: Kyrios [was: OK, a couple of things] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 15:39:08 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> In opposition: Part 2 Grafitti Vs Vandalism - Nilaihah >From: "Fallen Seraph" >Nilaihah >Angel of Grafitti >Cherub of Creation IST Stone I like this one too, but for different reasons. Most word bound tend to be on the powerful side, and folks seem to forget that wordbounds are not always able to handle thier foes and DO need back up. Im on the side of the underdog in this case. It could have done with a bit of blurb between him and eli, or some sense of appreciation by his supperior. Or even how he got his word. Elis walks in to the council chambers, a young cherub sneaks in behind, and tags the place, whilst a meetings going on, eli leaves, cherub follws and is wordbound with out realizing it for a few years or soemthing like that you know. Any ways, fine work all round i say. Til another time, Cas In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:18:43 -0500 (EST) From: Ryan M Roth Subject: IN> Weird News Hi all: Just some more tidbits of news that might make it into someone's IN game: *********************************************************************** VALEFOR COULDN'T RESIST -- IT WAS A MATTER OF PRINCIPAL Thieves have targeted participants of a Belgian TV debate while they were being told crime levels were going down. The victims didn't realise there was a problem until the debate in a Charleoi pub ended. A wallet, a laptop, handbags and coats are missing. The mayor had told the audience crime was falling. According to the De Morgen newspaper, he told people their fear of crime was exaggerated and quoted police figures showing crime was falling for the first time in five years. The programme was broadcast live on the RTBF channel. Among the victims is a judge who lost his wallet and a journalist who's lost a computer. The programme was called Charleroi, City Of Fear. ******************************************************************* USE THIS TO SEED YOUR OWN "HUNT DOWN THE ETHEREAL ARTIFACT" ADVENTURE Three Italian schoolgirls have been taken to hospital after falling under the supposed curse of an Egyptian pharaoh. The nine-year-olds collapsed with headaches and nausea after visiting the Pharaoh Ini exhibition at the Egyptian Museum in Turin. It is the third time in a year that visitors to the exhibition have become ill, and there have been dozens of other incidents. Many believe the artefacts are cursed. Police have opened an investigation into the mysterious effect, reports the Daily Express. Investigating procurator Raffaele Guarinello said: "Several people are treating this as a joke but to have so many people falling ill warrants further investigation. Many of the people who fainted complained of a strange, pungent smell coming from the exhibits. Dr Federico Signorile, of the Turin hospital where the latest victims are being treated, said: "To have so many people feeling ill in one place is unusual and we shall carry out tests to discover if there are any toxic substances present." But museum director Anna Maria Donadoni insisted: "We have more than 400,000 visitors a year and there have only been a handful of cases of people feeling ill. There is nothing strange at all and there is nothing wrong with the museum. "Above all there is no Pharaoh's curse." *************************************************************** MORE STRANGENESS Workers at a South Carolina car firm narrowly escaped injury after a 3ft slab of ice crashed through the roof. A local fire chief says the chunk of ice probably came from a passing meteor. He says it couldn't have fallen off a plane as aviation officials say there was no air traffic about at the time. Staff at the Acura dealership in West Ashley, Charleston, say the ice was about half the size of a car. It caused $5,000 ( 3,480) worth of damage to the roof and smashed into a new, parked car. It narrowly missed an employee, the Charleston Post & Courier reports. Fire Captain, Ray Gorham, said: "It punched through the roof like you punch your hand through a piece of paper. My best guess is that it was from the edge of a meteor." The firms parts and service manager, Mike Huggins, said: "Lots of police and firefighters came by just to have a look because nobody could believe that what was being radioed out had really happened." Asked if the ice had been deliberately aimed at the dealership, he said: "I don't think the Taliban can shoot that far." Samples of the melting ice have been sent to a laboratory. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:54:02 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Succubi, a Minor Band Succubi Early on, it is rumored that relations were less than cordial between Andrealphus ("a pushy demon") and Lilith ("a mere human concubine for the Lightbringer"). If the tales are to be believed, the understanding that the two now share was hard won, stormy, and full of such things as unexpected knees in painful places and surprise "bait-and-switch" games. Back then, when matters had not been settled -- so the legend goes -- Andre attempted to replicate Lilim. The result, generally called the Succubi (as opposed to the job description, "succubi"), was not sufficiently close to either risk Lilith's true wrath . . . or hold the Beautiful Prince's attention the way Lilim did. Like Lilim, Succubi are created female. There are few who are granted male vessels; an "incubus" is far more likely to be an Impudite than a male Succubus, and not just because Succubi are a minor Band. (It's not wise to ask the Prince why this is the case; the probable explanation is that he wanted a Band he could dominate more thoroughly than Lilim, and still takes out upon Succubi his frustrations on being unable to possess the Princess of Freedom.) However, a goodly number of them are either granted hermaphrodite vessels, or given access to certain Ornamental Numinous Corpus Songs. In celestial form, a Succubus is reddish-tinged, with little horns, miniature Impudite wings, dainty cloven hooves (they always walk as if in high heels), and a supple tail with the traditional fleshy "barb" on the end. Their personalities are a lot like Impudites' or Lilim's -- though most of them have, at some point or other, been "wired" to enjoy being submissive and/or masochistic. (See the above paragraph for why one doesn't ask _who_ did it.) Naturally, that only applies to other celestials -- they're perfectly capable of forcing a mere mortal, who is beneath them anyway. Indeed, some of them take out _their_ frustrations on the little monkeys. The Succubus resonance is, indeed, Perception-based -- they can, with a roll, detect the nearest person with Lustful (Discord or disadvantage), or simply in the throes of unrequited lust at the moment. Use the Cherub Resonance Table, but only for distance; condition results get "current state of arousal." Unfortunately, they all have a variant of Lustful/1 -- it acts more like a Need (Sex) in that they regain Essence normally if satiated, but they are still prone to need to seduce others. (Naturally, if they become more Discordant, this Lust is increased.) Their dissonance is tied to their Discord -- not only will they not receive Essence if they don't have sex, but they will become dissonant! (Masturbation to the exclusion of ALL other activities, for six hours per level of Lustful, will _usually_ suffice.) This dissonance can be relieved if the Succubus makes it up the next day, but will "stick" after that. Their Band Attunement allows them three abilities: 1. They can use the Celestial Song of Motion (if they have it) to teleport to a resonance-sensed source of Lust. 2. They can enter the dreamscape of anyone currently experiencing an erotic dream, without Song or Dreamwalking attunement, and stay as long as the dream continues to be sexual. (Yes, this can dump them out on the wrong side of the Vale if they're not careful. No, Beleth doesn't like finding Succubi in the Marches.) 3. If in an erotic dream, they can _descend_ to the dreamer's physical location! (Even if they got to the Marches via dreaming! Treat as akin to the Celestial Song of Motion.) BOX There are even fewer redeemed Succubi than there are Bright Lilim, by an order of magnitude. Indeed, the only one known to be successfully redeemed was by War (!) and was down to two Forces at the end of it. This was, apparently, an unstable enough combination (and the Succubus hated her former nature enough) that she came into Heaven as an unfledged reliever and eventually fledged Ofanite, of all things. Whether this means that Succubi simply do not have a stable angelic state (and thus must fit themselves to a different Choir-theme entirely), or that _that_ Succubus had a relatively unusual redemption, is not known. ENDBOX Few other Princes want Succubi; they're constantly distracted by their need and desire for sex. Not to mention that they're generally loyal to their creator-Prince (Andrealphus) even if technically bound to someone else. But there are some uses for them, as rewards for loyal Servitors if nothing else. Alaemon: He claims to have none and want none. (While pillow talk gains secrets, Succubi are too likely to spill the secrets themselves, to Andrealphus if no one else.) Asmodeus: The Prince of the Game has two Succubi. The first one to see if he could acquire her, and the second to prove it wasn't a fluke. Succubus One (that's her official name as well as designation) is kept in Hell, and sometimes paraded around on the end of a leash when an Asmodean does a sweep to look for dissonant Succubi in Shal-Mari. Succubus Two, less psychologically damaged than S-1, is typically on Earth-duty. (The Band Attunement is the same as any other Gamester's -- the ability to spot Succubi and their dissonance, if any.) Baal: With half a dozen Succubi (payment for some old debt), Baal rewards his best demons with "a wild night." Those caught making pillow-talk with the Succubi, though, will be punished appropriately. He has, however, used them as Mata Haris or assassins from time to time -- killing someone in personal combat will serve to satisfy their Discord as well as sex does. Beleth: She hates Succubi, and if she has any, it's briefly -- she tends to interrogate them for anything useful and then give them to the nastier ethereals as playthings. Belial: Succubi are boring. Fleurity: A Succubus of Drugs (there may be as many as three!) is addictive. After sex with one, the victim must roll Will, or develop an addiction . . . Haagenti: Gluttony prefers food to, er, other things. It's said that an out-of-favor Succubus once threw herself into Haagenti's maw to escape the wrath of Andrealphus, but that's about it. Kobal: though no one knows if he still has a Succubus (or ever had one), it's said that such a demon would gain Essence for making people laugh at her partner's sexual performance. (Dirty jokes, video tapes, audio tapes, photos, live . . .) Kronos: Legend has it that Kronos once obtained a Succubus, who promptly turned into a little blue smear of Discord on the floor because she could not meet her needs. Lilith: Again, legend states that Andrealphus gave her one of his early attempts, as a present; the Princess of Freedom smiled, thanked him politely, and destroyed the unfortunate demon. No one knows what she did with the Forces. Malphas: Though he'd like to have one, he's never managed it. Mammon: Greed owns five Succubi; allegedly his Band-gift to them is a Role as a high-priced courtesan or madame. Nybbas: As a sign of the alliance between Lust and the Media, Nybbas has been gifted with at least a dozen _fresh_ Succubi, created just for him by the Beautiful Prince. They are all porn stars, of course, whose servants are either their fellow actors or directors. Saminga: The one time Saminga got his hands on a Succubus (rather against everyone's will save his), he tried to turn her into a mummy. Despite high hopes for the Undead Seducer model, he wound up with a mess of dissolving Forces. Valefor: He's stolen many, but they tend to creep back to Shal-Mari after he's done with them and Andrealphus officially considers that he's merely "sharing" them with his associate. However, it's said a Succubus of Theft has a bonus of her Celestial Forces to any attempt to steal virginity or fidelity . . . This could manifest as reaction bonuses, Seduction bonuses, or -- such as in cases involving chastity belts -- Lockpicking bonuses. Vapula: Technology's labs hold one Succubus, who miraculously survived the Genius Pri--er, Genius Archangel's scrutiny as to how her Forces were put together. Her Band-relic is, ah, a conveniently-shaped, Summonable device that if, ahem, worn for 12 hours, will satisfy her Discord while still allowing her to perform other tasks. (With a -1 for any involving Precision, Intelligence, or Agility -- but you can't have everything.) Somewhat more usefully, it will also inflict a -3 distraction penalty on anyone else it _touches._ (If this is higher than someone's Will, consider that subject effectively paralyzed until the device is removed.) This has allowed her to escape some dicey situations on Earth, as well as rifle through people's files while they're quivering in, um, distraction. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:54:09 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Dodanim, the Passions, a minor Choir Dodanim, the Passions Most humans (who know anything at all about the War) assume that Servitors of Gabriel are interested in the Smite-the-Cruel and Prophetic aspects of the Word of Fire. Even a lot of other angels tend to believe this. But Fire also contains the themes of Passion. (So does Creation, but they tend to emphasize different aspects; unlike Eli's people, Servitors of an Ofanite Archangel think that an intense, hot quickie is perfectly reasonable -- if done for angelic reasons, and not Lustful ones, of course. Drives Judgment triads up the wall.) And so, Gabriel has the minor Choir known as the Passions. (Or, more formally, Dodanim (sing. Dodai; beloved).) In celestial form, they manifest as human-sized candle-flames, with the impression of a dancing or swaying human within -- indistinct and alluring. Their physical vessels are likewise attractive (sometimes in indefinable ways) and always moving. They're not Ofanim, they don't have to be _going_ places, but they do enjoy dance and movement. Their resonance is into what would inflame the passions of another. With a Perception roll, they can tell what erotic fantasy would most affect their target. (Use the check digit of the roll to determine reaction bonuses to the angel so long as it follows the "script," or penalties to resist going along with the "script," etc. Yes, this could be very dangerous in a dark campaign...) Note that sex does _not_ have to be a component of the fantasy; if someone's great desire is really to have a backrub while someone else does the housework, that's what the Dodai gets. But as Andrealphus' power testifies, human fantasies tend to involve sex a lot. Dodanim would be very jaded if they didn't take an innocent delight in the fantasies of others. Even the most twisted desires tend to evoke more pity than revulsion. (For penalties equivalent to those in the Lilim chapter of the IPG, Passions can seek specific fantasies or elements in a fantasy.) Their Choir Attunement does lean slightly more to the sexual: they target those who are cruel because of their own frigidity. If your "old biddy of a landlady" really _does_ "need to get laid" to improve her temperament, a Dodai can see it. More, they can tell if she dreams of the handsome (or beautiful) stranger with roses, or simply wants her husband to notice her, or anything in-between. They do not have to satisfy the fantasies of those they find -- their attunement duties are somewhat blurred between those of Fire's Mercurians and the other Choirs. They need to do what would reduce the cruelty most: a sociopathic killer should be punished; a lonely crank should have an affair. Dissonance for the Passions is turning to ash. Burning out. Encouraging the coldness of entropy. Less poetically, _not_ caring about those around them is dissonant, as is destroying the passion in another. (Yes, this means that they might wall rather kill a serial murderer than attempt to cure him.) Changing someone's passions is a tricky gray area for them. They are meant to encourage human emotions to burn brightly, and anything less dims their own fires. BOX: It should be noted that any Lilim who know about the Passions tend to treat them as Lilim Remnants (because of their resonance). The rumor among the Sisterhood is that the Dodanim are: 1: based on the shreds of an unsuccessfully redeemed Lilim. 2: what one gets if one tries to redeem Lilim because everyone knows Lilim burn up if you try to redeem them. 3: made from Lilim Remnants. 4: Gabriel's attempt to make Bright Lilim. 5: all of the above. (How do Lilim treat Lilim Remnants? That depends on the Lilim. Revulsion and pity are common, but so is outrage.) ENDBOX No one is sure what happens if a Passion Falls; the notion held by many Dodanim is that the "ash-demon" merely blows away on the Symphony, having no passion for anything -- not even life. Dodanim have been placed in service to other Archangels only rarely; few other Choir Attunements are known. Blandine: A dream-Passion has a bonus of Ethereal Forces to any attempt to shape a dreamscape to fit the dreamer's (resonance-detected) fantasy. _Any_ attempt. Eli: Each Dodanim who's gained Eli's regard has gotten something slightly different. The general range seems to be one of: the Kyriotate attunement (usually with effective Essence equaling the Passion's Celestial Forces), vessels which can be changed without Essence or disturbance (going celestial is still noisy), or a (typically highest) Forces' bonus to resonance rolls. Janus: For the Wind, Dodanim are supposed to be the "impossible dream." They get to perform the Songs of Ethereal Form and Corporeal Motion (at a level equal to Celestial Forces) for no Essence cost. (Treat effective Essence for a performance as equal to Celestial Forces.) Sweep into someone's life, turn it upside down in the best possible way, and vanish after reminding the mortal that dreams are possible. (Occasionally, they find someone whose greatest fantasy is to pursue and catch a master thief -- something which they can satisfy in grand cinematic style.) Yves: With an attunement which is almost counter-intuitive, these Dodanim can tell if a fantasy is bright or dark. The counter-intuitive pate is that a Fateful passion . . . still cannot be squelched without Choir Dissonance. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:54:29 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Seven Lovely Sins The Seven Lovely Sins Just as Malakim have their Eighth Virtue (see You Are Here), so do Lilim have a floating "party and family reunion," called, traditionally, "The Party," "The Family Reunion," and, most formally, "The Seven Lovely Sins." The Seven Sins, unlike the Eighth Virtue, is decadal -- it's generally held every 10 years or so. (Give or take a year for extenuating circumstances.) Also unlike the Eighth Virtue, there are traditionally seven organizers. This is not a hard and fast requirement, of course, but it is traditional: with that many people on the "ConComm" -- as the Vapulan Daughters often call it -- private grudges are less likely to be settled by a sister with too much power. ("Oh, you haven't gotten that little Discord problem settled? I'd never have gotten the All-Oyster-Buffet arranged if I'd known you were still... sensitive. I'm sure you'll stop hiccuping pearls soon.") Organizing the Seven Sins is both a status job and a pain in the neck, depending on a Lilim's personality and current jobs, tasks, and Geases. Some Lilim seek the job out, while others get stuck with it via a well-placed Geas or unofficial debt that they owe someone else. The responsibilities of the organizers are assigned with formal wording. I.e., saying "Tabitha will take Lust, while Lilian is Sister Gluttony" doesn't mean that Tabitha is a Lilim of Lust, and Lilian a Servitor of Haagenti -- it just means that Tabitha is in charge of providing the entertainment while Lilian has to get the refreshments set up. Naturally, if there are not seven Lilim on the committee, some will have to double up. It should also be noted that the Seven Lovely Sins committee is supposed to arrange the event with the maximal amount of favor trading and the least amount of actually paying for things. It's considered gauche to write a check -- unless the money was acquired via favors, that is. There's no penalty, per se, for using mundane means to set things up; if you get caught doing that, your sisters will just laugh at you for a few decades and make snide remarks about "the sister who has to work for a living." Other Bands, or humans, are permitted to attend if they are in the company of a Lilim. Princes and Princesses are naturally permitted to go where they will, Lilim date on their arm or not. Lesser nobility might or might not get in -- it's said that when a Duke of the War attempted to crash the party, he was ejected by the Princess of Freedom herself. It's also rumored that Lilith once brought the Archangel Marc to a Seven Lovely Sins . . . Non-Lilim are, however, definitely second-class guests (unless they're Princes). They're likely to be shooed off to the bar while sisters "do girl talk" -- deal-making -- or quietly auctioned off as gigolos or courtesans to Lilim siblings. In general, the Seven Lovely Sins is one of the few places outside the Guildhall in Hell where Lilim are in the majority. And Lilim like it that way. There is no stigma attached to coming unattended. In deference to the longer duration of the hiatus between Family Reunions, most of them will last 2-3 days. (One was arranged at a hot-springs resort and lasted a full week, each day with entertainment devoted to one of the traditional seven sins!) The Organizers' Titles The following three are the minimum that a Seven Lovely Sins event is deemed to require. GLUTTONY: Responsible for catering and one of the simplest of the duties. Sometimes the location of the event gets designated to Sister Gluttony. (If there's no Sister Covetousness or Sister Envy, Sister Gluttony is expected to be the "neutral party" of the Seven Sins.) LUST: Responsible for providing any live entertainment (male strippers are popular, no matter how much the Tempters claim they only attend to keep in touch with their sisters), and often the location of the event. (If there's no Sister Pride, Sister Lust usually handles check-in as well, unless Sister Wrath isn't feeling overworked.) WRATH: Security. Sister Wrath organizes bouncers and any other security measures required. The following are not as vital, but make things easier. SLOTH: Since Lilim need a place to lay their heads (or at least a private room for private deals) for the 2-3 days the Family Reunion will last, Sister Sloth is in charge of finding a location. COVETOUSNESS: This Daughter is responsible for "holding the pot," either literally if there is actual gambling going on, or figuratively if there are any deals made which require a neutral third party. If she's arranged for a full gambling room (with cards, dice, roulette wheels, etc.), then she's expected to share duties with Sister Wrath for security and spotting cheaters. PRIDE: Ironically, Sister Pride is the catch-all gopher for the group. This puts her either in the role of "Cinderella," running around doing the scut-work, or provides a wonderful opportunity to get her sisters owing her unofficial favors. Or both. She handles check-in at the Reunion proper, and is expected to provide little tokens which can be kept as souvenirs (a cross between event badges and party favors). ENVY: Sister Envy is primarily responsible for communications between the organizers, and being a central source of data for the Sisterhood as to the whereabouts and date of the Seven Lovely Sins this decade. (The latter is often delegated to Sister Pride.) Her duties also include making sure that the other Sisters are providing the basic requirements of entertainment, refreshments, and housing. At the event proper, she's the primary coordinator and Lilim to go to if something goes wrong. (If there is no Sister Covetousness, Envy is also deemed responsible for being the neutral party.) Seeds: * The PCs are all on the "ConComm," and have a scant decade to get everything in order and send out the invitations, while still preserving their own Roles and accomplishing their own duties. Enough said. (Yes, this demands an all-Lilim cast, or at least enough Lilim that they can "hire" the rest of the PCs as gophers for their projects.) * This year, the Eighth Virtue and the Seven Lovely Sins . . . are in the same city. In fact, they're both downtown, in hotels across the street from one another. (For even more tension, they're in the same hotel!) This was discovered far too late to actually change the location safely. Fortunately, Sister Pride has managed to make a deal with the coordinator of the Eighth Virtue: See no Evil, Seek no Evil, Smite no Evil. The Lilim don't go harass the blackwings, and the Malakim don't go hunting for greenies. PCs are either the committee, or recruited by Sister Wrath to keep the Daughters out of trouble. * A newly-redeemed demon was a lackey of Sister Covetousness for this decade's Seven Sins -- a Lilim of Mammon. The ex-demon swears up and down that the Mammonite Daughter is going to auction off a real live angel to her sisters as a slave, one who was thought dead. The angelic team must infiltrate the event and spirit away the prisoner. Can they accomplish this without being captured themselves, in a rural resort, surrounded by several dozen Lilim, whose personal power ranges from newborn Daughters to ancient Duchesses? * The Game has heard that Sister Wrath has a plan to frame a high-ranking Asmodean at the Seven Sins (perhaps Staciel, Demon of Intrigue; perhaps someone else; perhaps Staciel is the one rumored to be doing the planning!). They want a team to infiltrate the event and follow the target around. When whoever-it-is makes her (or his) move, the PCs are expected to A: thwart it, B: provide testimony to clear the target's name, and/or C: take the would-be framer captive. * A 10-Force Kyriotate has managed to jump into the party, and is bouncing around, causing minor havoc. So far, it hasn't grabbed anyone with a Force Catcher, and Sister Wrath isn't sitting still and waiting for that to happen. The PCs are, naturally, on the security team. * It was a bad idea to have three Vapulans, two Nybassians, and a Lustie with a furry fetish on the "ConComm." They've arranged to have the Seven Lovely Sins at the same hotel and same time as a science fiction convention. Is this a social disaster, or a grand opportunity for mayhem disguised as SFX and costumery? Well, the world is what you make of it . . . - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:25:28 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Khalid's Choir Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Is khalid a former servitor of David's? It would fit. Nope, he's like Laurence, a former Servitor of Uriel. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:28:05 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Khalid's Choir Brook Freeman wrote: > If you make a conscious decision to believe you say to yourself (for > example), "I believe that the teachings of the Catholic Church are true and > will follow them," without any specific feeling or emotion driving that > decision. Just make yourself say it and repeat it over and over and hope > that you actually come to believe later. If you have no intellectual or emotional investment in such a belief, then that's not faith, but willful delusion. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:51:34 -0600 (CST) From: ben@hiwaay.net Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2517 Quoting in_nomine-digest : > From: "Shane" > Subject: IN> Angel of Nowhere... > > On 17 Jan 2002, 15:57, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > Maybe you weren't _really_ a new fledge, but were part-created from > > the Remnant Angel of Nowhere...? O:> > > Oog. Creepy thought. > > (although I do get a weird mental image of "Heeere, Wordy Wordy Wordy. > > Heeere, new home, Wordy, come back...." :p) > > On 17 Jan 2002, 17:05, Josh Moger wrote: > > Hmm... Perhaps that Word keeps getting given out, to angels and > demons > > both, and the holder just sort of wanders off. A few, or a hundred, > or > > what not, years later their heart shatters. > > Or can't be found anywhere. "Where'd its Heart go?" "Um, it couldn't > have > gone anywhere, we were watching it the whole time, the place is locked > up > tighter than a drum..." "So you're saying it went Nowhere, aren't you?" > > "Uh...." :) > > > I'm sure the respective Superior would be interested in finding out > why, > > but Remnants are so hard to trace. Usually they let the matter drop > after > > a few millennia or so (sooner for Demon Princes). > > > > Course, they never seem to notice the few servitors of Oblivion that > are > > left among the Horde. > > > > And they never, ever seem to notice their smiles. > > > > And not once has any angel or demon heard the little whisper the > former > > servitor speaks after hearing about the remnants' demise... > > > > "Soon." > > > > Josh > > *twitch* > > Though, it's the Word of Nowhere, not the Word of Oblivion. I think, > Celestially speaking, that it's not the same thing. You know, it just occured to me that Limbo could be said to be Nowhere. Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 12:54:30 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2517 ben@hiwaay.net wrote: > You know, it just occured to me that Limbo could be said to be > Nowhere. This is its canonical location. And an Angel of Limbo could be a very useful person. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:30:51 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Khalid's Choir - --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > In the ancient and medieval world where the religions of > IN began, > and outside the specialized sphere of religion, faith > meant > primarily loyalty and trust. [snip] if you > transfer those virtues to the religious sphere and put > different > religions and irreligions in competition with one > another, > loyalty and trust loyalty and trust often express > themselves as persistent and deliberate belief. Good point. > Is khalid a former servitor of David's? It would fit. No, he was one of Uriel's lot along with Laurence. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:43:05 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Defending Khalid as Elohim - --- Donato Ranzato wrote: > Okay, maybe this is just sematics, but as an example, do > you know the earth > is round or believe it based upon certain "evidence"? Do > you believe or know > that a man walked upon the moon? Both excellent examples, for only a few living Humans have the direct experience necessary for either of those to qualify as knowledge. Most of us are forced to take those things on faith. > When is something faith and one is something knowledge? As I said, direct (in some cases, even indirect) experience gives one knowledge. Without that experience one is taking something on faith. > Maybe Khalid "knows" Faith and God exists based upon > evidence, and he has > faith that this evidence is true Most angels -- and many demons -- have indirect experience of the existence of God by witnessing or experiencing Divine Interventions. The oldest Archangels have dealt with God directly (certainly Yves and Michael have; cases can be made for Janus, Gabriel, David and Eli as well). With first hand knowledge of the existence of God, they don't need faith to believe that he exists. Nor is their belief likely to be shaken by the opinions of those who lack that first hand knowledge. It's easy for Khalid to believe in God; it's not a subjective thing for him. But believing that Islam is the best religion for bringing Humans to their Destinies -- there is no evidence proving that in IN canon, and thus Khalid must have faith to believe it. But if he reaches that conclusion through subjective means (which is inevitable if one takes something on faith), he has done something that is Dissonant for Elohim. That's the conflict. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:46:24 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> In opposition: Part 2 Grafitti Vs Vandalism - Nilaihah I like these two. And with a campaign based in San Antonio, it's easy to fit them in. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 14:08:00 -0500 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2517 >ben@hiwaay.net wrote: > >> You know, it just occured to me that Limbo could be said to be >> Nowhere. > >This is its canonical location. And an Angel of Limbo could be >a very useful person. > >Earl Snip Well... yes. Or a very scared person. Josh ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:48:35 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> In opposition: Part 2 Grafitti Vs Vandalism - Nilaihah - --- cassandra benner wrote: > Eli walks in to the council chambers, a young cherub > sneaks in behind, and > tags the place, whilst a meetings going on, eli leaves, > cherub follws and is > wordbound with out realizing it for a few years Funny! I can't see it getting past Dominic, but still funny. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 15:10:17 EST From: CsHoneyman@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Khalid's Choir Khalid was a Servitor of Uriel originally, wasn't he? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:55:10 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Seven Lovely Sins - --- Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > The Seven Lovely Sins Thank you, Beth. This one goes into my file of "Stuff to Run at Conventions!" ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 21:15:34 -0000 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> Defending Khalid as Elohim A thought on the basic nature of Elohim. They have to act in accordance with the needs of the Symphony as they perceive them, putting aside subjective wishes and desires in order to obey a higher power. They have to subordinate their personal beliefs and wishes, and they have to believe in God and not themselves. For there's a word for Elohim who believe in their own perceptions and not in the Symphony, and it's not a pretty one. Really, Elohim have to have faith. Or how else do you justify all those cold-blooded, _necessary_ things that you've done for the sake of the Symphony? You have to believe in God. You need that faith. For faith is a quality which you are given through grace, from which you can perform acts of faith. True faith isn't something you brainwash yourself into by repeating beliefs from nine till five: it's a divine gift (as much so as Gabriel's inspiration) and must be nourished and cherished. Oh yes. Khalid knows all about faith. Genevieve Cogman (okay, that's my point of view, anyhow) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 17:00:16 -0500 From: "Brook Freeman" Subject: RE: IN> Khalid's Choir > Brook Freeman wrote: > > If you make a conscious decision to believe you say to yourself (for > > example), "I believe that the teachings of the Catholic Church > are true and > > will follow them," without any specific feeling or emotion driving that > > decision. Just make yourself say it and repeat it over and > over and hope > > that you actually come to believe later. > > If you have no intellectual or emotional investment in such a belief, > then that's not faith, but willful delusion. But starting from there you can come to real belief. This is all a matter of where you start. Brook ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 17:31:43 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Kyrios [was: OK, a couple of things] Your post is actually a pretty good defense of Kyrios. I haven't used any in my game yet, because I'm nervous about the whole concept. (In fact, the major villain so far was a BalKyrie, so the whole "possession" notion still equals "demon" in most of the (recently-Mundane) characters' minds.) But these will be good points for me to bear in mind when introducing the Choir to the characters. William ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2518 ********************************