in_nomine-digest Friday, November 30 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2465 In this digest: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) IN> Responding to Re: Wish List Re: IN> Responding to Re: Wish List IN> Triad 314 (Inspired by Dominican Tank Police) IN> Salim on Uriel. Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Leilani pt 1 Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Responding to Re: Wish List Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Leilani pt 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:43:19 -0500 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) At 06:42 PM 11/29/01 +0000, you wrote: >>From: "Bevan Thomas" >>Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) >>Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:25:19 -0800 > >[snip] >>It is argueable whether what the Ethereals give is anywhere near what >>they gain, but it is still a two-way street. A parasite takes, he never >>gives (for then he is no longer a parasite). > >Actually, I'd always thought that the more highly evolved parasites were >the ones that took care to keep their hosts healthy and productive. > >A /symbiote/ relationship is, IIRC, an /even/ swap... neither can survive >without the other. This is not true of the ethereal/worshipper >dynamic... although the mortal worshippers may be better off with their >ethereal patron than without him, they could live without it. OTOH, if >the ethereal loses all his mortal worshippers, he's dead. > >Hence 'parasite' -- even if he gives back some, he's still getting more >than he gives. More to the point, he'll die without the getting. If Ethereals are the result of humanity's dreams, I think all of them being "parasites" would be inaccurate. Some of those dreams would certainly want to protect their "parents"; I can't see King Arthur or any of the other Ethereals from heroic origins being cynical opportunists who prey on humanity for their Essence. A lot of Ethereals would probably want to help humanity in exchange for their existence; many of them would define the purpose for their existence to be that after all. - -- Mike Bruner-- mbruner18@home.com I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days attack me at once. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 06:38:07 +0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) >From: Omentide > > >>Demons take. Angels just collect what's already discarded. Or what is >>the >>bounty of God. > >This does not make sense. For a start the war is about human souls, souls >are the coin of the war. Demons milk souls for essence. It would be fair >to assume the amount of essence reaching Heaven and Hell are roughly equal >since otherwise there would be no war, one side would have won. Hence >Heaven must be getting roughly the same amount of essence as Hell. So >either God provides exponentially as the human race expands (unlikely), or >both sides take from humanity and humanity is torn in the war between >Heaven and Hell in roughly equal parts. > If you assume that God is good, then assume that Heaven is provided with as much Essence as it needs to function, If you don't assume that, then you're already off into a variant ;) jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 07:29:15 +0000 From: "Jonathan Walton" Subject: IN> Responding to Re: Wish List Okay, responding to all the comments about my IN wish list: 1. I agree that diversity in IN artwork is severely lacking. Part of that, I suppose, comes from the traditional Western view of angels as white/Jewish/arab people with wings, but you only ever see Middle Eastern angels next to paragraphs about Khalid or the angels of Faith. How to fix that? I'm not entirely sure. 2. On the issue of Celestial spirituality ... I'm not suggesting that Angels should be divided into "churches" or "sects" or anything formalized like that. I'm simply saying that it would be nice for IN to acknowledge some of the more important questions that every angel would have to deal with, and offer some choices of how that could go about it. We get every Superior's opinions on God, Humanity, and the Symphony (at least in the full writeups), but there are few suggestions (outside of the bits in the GMG) of how normal angels deal with the big questions. Personally, that's the kind of thing I'd like to see in an APG. Describing further what a Seraph or Djinn can _do_ is not nearly so important as describing the Celestial worldview and how they _think_. I often run across this conversation: GM "So what does your angel believe about God?" Player "Um, well, he just feels like most angels do. He loves God and works to preserve the Symphony." I always have to push my players to consider whether their characters believe in predestination or think God is capable of mistakes, and I wish the main book pushed them a bit to consider spiritual issues, instead of powers and abilities. 3. Cameron and some others took issue with having Celestials be "alien" to human understanding, since the people playing them (GM and players) are only human. Granted, but I think it's certainly possible to emphasize the Divine and Infernal nature of Celestials, their immortality, their personal relationship with the Powers That Be, and the fact that they don't really think like humans. Too often I feel like IN slips into be a Supers or Urban Fantasy game (with the religion bit just tacked on). Having the characters be more clearly seperated from normal humans would help with this. As I recall, when they were working on originally converting IN over from INS/MV, there was that Divinity/Inhuman scale of points for the choirs/bands ...? Tthat idea might be worth rethinking (especially since SJ is paying for the license). 4. Abstractifying Songs and Celestial Abilities. Maybe it's just the fact that I hate lists and having a limited number of choices. Okay, situation: player makes a Servitor of Belial, buys some Songs, including some of the Songs of Fire (being connected to his Word), and begins play. However, a situation comes up where the character wants to do something a bit creative with fire, something that's related to, say, what the Corporeal Song of Fire does, but it's not quite kosher. According to the rules, the demon can't pull it off. Still, as a GM, I'd want to let the player do it (for maybe another point of essence), and I'd rather that the rules allow that kind of thing as well. You don't need to make IN into Ars Magica to make things more abstract, but you would have to retool some of the existing guidelines. What goes for Songs could also go for Resonances and other Celestial powers. Your Malakite wants to search for specific information about a certain act of dishonor? Why the hell not? Just spent some essence or make a Resonance roll at a penalty. No silly "expanded resonance rules" needed. Your angel wants to listen to the natural song of the Symphony to find out a bit about the general "feel" of an area? It's not canon, but why couldn't they do that? Hope that better explains my position. 5. No, I do not want a Metaplot. You can create tension and excitement without having dictated events that are declared to have occurred. 6. On Forces and Word-Forces. Personally, I don't like the current max because makes the most-powerful Word-bound (18 Forces) the eqivilent of two typical Celestials (9 Forces), a divide that I think is way too small. Also, it's not that I don't like Word-Forces as an idea, I just think it might not be the best system to run a game with Word-bound PCs. That said, I realize that IN basically discourages playing Word-bound. Still, I'm waiting for the 2nd Ed of Nobilis, since I think that might provide some good ideas for doing just that. I'm not going to touch the Sorcery topic, but I do like the way it was handled in IN. I guess I just wish the rules were a little more streamlined and intuitive, and that the mechanics weren't categorized in spells and rituals. Obviously, the sorcerors use complicated eldritch incantations and formulae, but I wish that was just the icing on a modified Will roll + essence (and that you could do the calculations in your head without needing the book). Later. Jonathan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 05:26:56 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Responding to Re: Wish List Jonathan Walton wrote: > What goes for Songs could also go for Resonances and other Celestial > powers. Your Malakite wants to search for specific information about a > certain act of dishonor? Why the hell not? Indeed. > Just spent some essence or make > a Resonance roll at a penalty. No silly "expanded resonance rules" needed. > Your angel wants to listen to the natural song of the Symphony to find out a > bit about the general "feel" of an area? It's not canon, but why couldn't > they do that? Why not? Every GM should be able to improvise. > 6. On Forces and Word-Forces. Personally, I don't like the current max > because makes the most-powerful Word-bound (18 Forces) the eqivilent of two > typical Celestials (9 Forces), a divide that I think is way too small. Uh, this strikes me as munchkinish. Power isn't just measured in Forces. Does GURPS provide too small a "divide" because a normal human's max attributes are 20, "only" double what an average human has (10)? > Also, it's not that I don't like Word-Forces as an idea, I just think it > might not be the best system to run a game with Word-bound PCs. That said, > I realize that IN basically discourages playing Word-bound. Still, I'm > waiting for the 2nd Ed of Nobilis, since I think that might provide some > good ideas for doing just that. http://www.amadan.org/nobilis/IN-Nobilis.html - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:02:22 -0000 From: "Adam Benedict Canning" Subject: IN> Triad 314 (Inspired by Dominican Tank Police) > Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:37:44 > From: "Michael Cleveland" > Subject: IN> Triad 314 (Inspired by Dominican Tank Police) Fun and a better portrayal of Dominic than some. But this seems more Lovely Angels/Dirty Pair than Tank Police. The Tank Police triad is going to be where the very few Angels of War in service to Judgement are put. "Yes, Most Holy he confessed." "While you were gluing a white phosphorus grenade to his genitalia." "Yes, Most Holy." "You do not consider this an unusual interrogation technique?" "No, Most Holy." "You are aware of the complaints from Salem about your actions." "No, Most Holy." "She is upset by the number of historic monuments you have destroyed in this week. And month. And year." Adam ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:31:55 -0000 From: "Adam Benedict Canning" Subject: IN> Salim on Uriel. > Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:34:08 > From: "Perry Lloyd" > Subject: Re: IN> Wish List > Frankly, all this crap sprouts up to fill the VOID, the > complete lack of > stability. Oh, yeah, Uriel *might* be beneath Gabriel's > Volcano, or he > *might* be in the Marches, or, he *might* . . . Inez " So what happened to Uriel after that?" Salim "We don't know. Its a mystery of god, but..." Inez "But?" Salim "I was out beyond the Twelfth Pylon in the Far Marches and I found something." Inez "Hmm?" Salim "A Tesseract, bigger than a star and smaller than a tear." Inez "So from what you've said the Marches are the universes storage place for weird stuff." Salim "You remember that ear ring you borrowed the time you came to Heaven?" Inez "Yeah, the one you said was made from the light of the Ain Sof, it was cool pity it can't be seen on Earth." Salim "The Tesseract was made of the same stuff, and it was newer than the creation. Only YHVH could have made it, or Eli and Lucifer together. That's where I think he is, trapped in the pure fabric of the symphony." Adam - -- "It was one of the zoological high points of the Council's varied political history, right up there with the infamous Incendiary Cat Plot." Count Aral Vorkosigan, Mirror Dance ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:55:19 -0500 From: Matthew Gerber Subject: Re: IN> Wish List Bevan Thomas wrote: > For the record, technology, sex, and the media are not inherently > evil, and yet we have demons trying to force it on mortals as much as > possible. It's because they want their own demonic brand embedded on > the collective minds of the masses and no other. They want hellish > technology, not divine. The same applies to sorcery. No. It's true that technology, sex, and the media aren't evil, but Technology, Lust, and The Media are. In a similar sense, Sorcery is as well. To expand a point that David made, Words and other powers in In Nomine *are not* reduced to their unaligned concepts. Otherwise, there would be no Word-friction between Gabriel and Belial. Let's take your examples in specific. The Infernal Word of Technology doesn't simply refer to general scientific and practical advance--Jean, except in his most utterly anti-human interpretations, supports that--it refers to a much more dangerous, careless, and above all destructive form of analyzing the universe. (As an aside, _The Abolition of Man_ by C.S. Lewis leads to a rather interesting spin on these concepts.) Vapula is probably one of the less inherently evil Princes--largely because he's nuttier than a fruitcake--but any overall positive spin on his Word is either Backwards, non-canonical or both. The Infernal Word of Lust doesn't simply refer to sexuality--Eli supports that--it refers to it being reduced to a weapon, a toy, or both. Any overall positive spin on the Word would not only be either Backwards or non-canonical, but a *really* good trick. The Infernal Word of the Media doesn't simply refer to communication, it refers to a very cynical form of one-way communication oriented on keeping the monkeys fat, happy, and stupid. And Heaven doesn't have a really direct counter for it, which is a real problem for Heaven. Again, there's really no easy way to positively spin this unless you change the canonical definition of the Word. Finally we reach Sorcery. Sorcery refers to a very dangerous, cynical, and manipulative manner of obtaining power. It's very hard for a Sorceror to be what most people would think of as good--let alone actually aligned with In Nomine's Forces of Good--given not anything to do with the Sorceror in particular, but *the way Sorcery is defined to work in the universe.* You're not waving a wand, you're (at best) compelling your will on another being or (more likely) mortgaging your soul. If you wanted to create an outside-the-box means for Humans to be able to have supernatural effects on the universe that worked differently from Sorcery that didn't have the same moral problems, then you could get what you want to work. It could even work interestingly. But it wouldn't be Sorcery, it would be something else, and it would greatly change the setting of In Nomine. I could see several ways of doing it that would create interesting variants, but none that would really belong in canon. IMHO, YMMV, HTH, Matt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:55:32 -0500 From: "Robb Kidd" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List Perry Lloyd wrote: > Hey, go for it, people hate diversity, frankly, and the ideas of Dreams made > Flesh is extremely boring. Yea. The Sandman series by that Gaiman fellow didn't do well at all. > And besides, Ethereal beings would have to have their own cool powers, but > no one buys supplements because of cool powers . . . or cool stories about > the Old Gods points of view, their secret societies, or the lay out of the > Far Marches. So no one bought "Liber Canticorum" or "Rev2: The Marches"? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:58:35 -0500 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> Leilani pt 1 Hi Moe, I loved what you started with Leilani. Any chance of more about her and her opposite number being written up? Please? Thanks either way. Jeffery _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:41:31 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List >Entropy embodies both decay *and* chaos/randomness. This is perfeclty >within >the realm of Creation, and even in Eli's description. However, Creation >requires Will *against* Chaos as well - Chaos without order has no Form to >it. It is a touch of both, that truly Creates. > >...and that leads back into the issue of Eli's word very well >encompassing...everything( with the exception of God himself, unless of >course one follows the technicalities of reality being defined by the >beliefs of mortals, in which case Mortals created God created Mortals >created God ad inf., and makes *everything* (including God) fall into the >realms of Eli's word. > >...ok, *now* I'm off the topic... that's ok. I think you just changed my opinion on the Eli/Entropy thing. Thank you. :) This is very cool . . . - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 11:50:20 -0500 From: "Jason F. McBrayer" Subject: Re: IN> Responding to Re: Wish List On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 07:29:15AM +0000, Jonathan Walton wrote: > 4. Abstractifying Songs and Celestial Abilities. Maybe it's just the fact > that I hate lists and having a limited number of choices. Okay, situation: > player makes a Servitor of Belial, buys some Songs, including some of the > Songs of Fire (being connected to his Word), and begins play. However, a > situation comes up where the character wants to do something a bit creative > with fire, something that's related to, say, what the Corporeal Song of Fire > does, but it's not quite kosher. According to the rules, the demon can't > pull it off. This is what variants on Songs are for, of course. The rules for discovering variants are in the LC, but you can just write them and hand them out as bennies, of course. Actually, I like the flavour of Songs as they are. A Song isn't a generalized power to affect the Symphony; it's a particular well-known theme. If it's performed, it has particular effects. To vary the effects, you'd have to be able to improvise effectively, and that's _very_ hard. It can be done, though, if you're a virtuoso at that Song. A more generalized Ars Magica-like system would be good, if the setting had been designed that way from the beginning, but Songs as they are aren't just a rules artifact; they're part of the setting. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@carcosa.net | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:49:59 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) > >From: "Bevan Thomas" > > > Parasites seems a little too harsh a word to me. Though they are >dependent > > on humans and do take Essence from them, they do give things in return >(a > > cohesive belief system, spiritual protection and aid, songs and rites, > > etc.). > >Of course they give things back in return for the essence that keeps them >alive, but they do it out of enlightened self-interest rather than true >generosity. Everything they give, they give because it makes their >continued >existence that much more assured. I hate to be a pain in the ass, but I'd like to point out that NOT all Ethereal spirits appear to be the product of human dreamers or even dreamers at all . . . I recall the Primal Spirits in The Marches. I don't have the book with me, but iirc, they are supposedly either a product of the dreams of the earth, lightning, fire etc . . . or they're left-over from the initial Creation of the universe or something. Just thought I'd throw that in. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:35:40 +0000 From: "Alison Lowe" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 Guys, I suggest you all check www.white-wolf.com and then go to the release schedule. Scroll down to the bottom and cry like a baby. Then read my sig. Not before, though. Alison "Do you think you're funny?" "I try not to fly in the face of public opinion." -Blackadder II "... Somebody call my bank, I think my reality check just bounced!" -Tower of Judgement on the news of Demon: the Fallen Storyteller of World of Darkness: Hong Kong http: //communities.msn.co.uk/WorldofDarknessHongKong _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:41:18 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List > > 1. In Nomine is not GURPS. Taken from Beth, actually, but I think >the > > point needs to be pushed further. Just because IN is published by >SJGames > > doesn't mean that it needs a complicated point-based system for >calculating > > stuff. > >Personally, with the obvious exception of Artifacts, I don't find the >point system at ALL complicated. Comparing it to GURPS is like comparing a >pocket calculator to a PC. Depends on how much of the GURPS mechanics you want to use, yes. For my multiverse campaign, I pretty much only used the GURPS rules for character creation. After that, everything else seemed self-explanatory. I haredly opened the core rules again. :) > > 2. Simplify. Definitely needs to be more abstract and flexible. > > Expand the scope but simplify the mechanics. > >Easily said. Now... How? Oh, you know, with generalities. :P > > 3. No Restrictions. These are Celestials we are talking about >here, > > cosmic beings far beyond what we can even imagine. Then why is it that >I > > often feel like the various Choirs and Bands are just races in a >standard > > fantasy campaign? Why can their abilities be neatly listed and defined? > > Shouldn't Celestials (and Ethereals) be given something of a wider range >of > > ways in which to operate? > >So, what you're saying is no more choirs/bands? Every celestial starts off >on the same footing, and then buys their abilities, with all abilities >available to every celestial? Heck, I thought you said you wanted it to be >LESS like GURPS. Ironically, this is precisely the case in the original European game, except in that all the characters' powers (except one) are rolled randomly (the simple explanation). heh heh > > 4. Dynamism, Excitement. Sure, Celestials are thousands of years >old, > > but this is _the_ War we're talking about here and it has cosmic >importance. > > It's the only game in town. I want to feel the emotional significance >of > > the War, feel the gains and losses, and overall I want some idea of > > movement. The War is, after all, ultimately leading up to the Final > > Conflict (not the Rev Cycle, please) and, even though that day may still >be > > far off, some motion should be apparent. > >You mean a metaplot? Maybe just some stories of the war in progress. There doesn't need to be an overaching metaplot to the game, but maybe some stories about an island on the pacific rim, or a small english town, or an infernal-controlled space station. :) > > 5. Confront this Religion Thing. > >At least the GMG *finally* bit into that apple. Tell me about it. Hrm, a game about God without religion . . . some sort of secular "everyone happy, offend no one" thing. > > we have next to no > > information about what kinds of beliefs Celestials have (and they're the > > main character types). Saying they have "varying" spiritual beliefs is >the > > equivalent of saying nothing at all. > >The GMG went into the various beliefs that were compatible with the >angelic and demonic mindset. That's more than enough of a jumping off >point for anyone lacking the creativity to come up with a religious >viewpoint for their own character (or for NPCs, for the GM). Our group has >yet to run across this conversation: > >GM: "What religious viewpoints does your character have?" > >Player: "Um... I don't know. The book doesn't have any information on what >sort of beliefs my angel might have." ha ha ha . . . wel, I've run into the GM: "Is your (anglic) character religious?" Player: "I dunno, is it important?" GM: "To the game? Well . . . probably not, since it's hardly touched on in the book and the requirement for being 'Good' is being more selfless than selfish, unless you're a Demon, so . . . I guess not." Player: "Well, he believe in God." GM: "Ok, which version, the Jewish version, Christian version or Muslium version?" Player: "I dunno, the ineffable power in the sky one." GM: "Ah, the God as found in the Desert." Player: "Can we move onto the next question?" > > 6. Symphony, Symphony, Symphony. The last time that an IN book >talked > > significantly about the Symphony? If it's the basis of all creation, if > > it's what the War is about, shouldn't it be fairly significant? >Celestials > > manipulate the Symphony all the time with Songs, Resonances, spending > > essence, moving between Realms, etc. Why then is Disturbance the only > > influence it seems to have on the game? > >I like what we're doing in Tattered, too... make all that Disturbance >start to HURT. Sort of like the whole Star Trek Warp Speed Limit... hee hee hee . . . sounds like fun. > > 7. Multi-Genre, Multi-Time, Multi-Place. > >Eh. I find this stuff boring as all hell, personally. If left in, it >should be in ADD-ON BOOKS, not in the CORE book, definitely. yeah, I'd agree. Though, references to time travel (just an off-hand comment) would do fine. Time travel is par for the course in the European game. > > 1. Awe. This is a game about cosmic beings, some of whom have >existed > > from the dawn of time. Angels, Archangels, Demons, Demon Princes, all > > supernatural creatures should be somewhat frightening and awesome to the > > mortals, and in comparison to the Corporeal world. This is not the fear >and > > dark angst of the World of Darkness; this is the ineffable. > >Here you're talking style. This one is up the GM. A few lines about it in >the book wouldn't hurt, though, under GM Advice or some such. I personally feel that lack of style is In Nomine's BIG PROBLEM. People are attracted to style, it grabs them and sucks them in. Then they buy the book and so do their friends. In Nomine in its current incarnation is the kind of core book that only the GM needs to own. Hopefully the second edition will be the kind of book that the players *want* to own. (Like Mage or Vampire.) Of course, publishing a GM core book and Player's Guide core book would a cheap shot aimed at boosting sales, too. :) It would also be a good way of getting more material out there, with two books to fill, page count limitations become less of an issue. > > 2. Celestials don't think like humans. > >No, but humans are playing them, so don't expect completely alien >viewpoints. They're going to be played much more humanlike than alienlike >just because of who's playing them... as it is, I think the books do a >decent job of encouraging more remote and alien viewpoints. They could do >more, true. yup yup yup > > 1. No Check Digit Tables/Simplify Resonances > >I don't have a problem with the resonances as written, personally. The >normal CD tables are easy to use. The "Expanded APG Tables" have already >been officially labelled "an embarrasment" and will be cut in the next >edition, if any. Beth said so. the major problem I have with the CD tables is caused by the problems inherent in the CD, namely that an assuming both succeed, an Angel with Perception 8 can score CD6 while the Angel with Perception 12 can score a 3 .. . . is this supposed to reflect the arbitrary nature of the Symphony or what? personally, I like the CD table for the European game: 1-2 mediorce success 3-4 average success 5-6 good success 7+ very good success this forces PCs to /use/ Risk, which I've never ever had any of my players use (I imagine because they didn't want to bother "having to read" the core rules - when I asked why not my friend Matt said: "Because it's boring") The book is boring, just listing descriptions of stuff. In fact, one of my players *refused* to read through the Liber Canticorum, actually *refused* to flip through it to get an idea of what kinds of other Songs are available to him. Because it was "boring." He was rpg-raised on White Wolf, so I understand why he would feel that way. I grew up on GURPS, so what little story is in the In Nomine books I'm happy with. For Chrissakes, in the Hunter book, each skill description has a little paragraph story attached to it! Bring LIFE to the core rules, dammit. Like, an example of how the Corporeal Song of Attraction is actually useful! > > 2. Simplify Disturbance Rules > >Well, YEAH. I mean, that one's just a big huge joke. > > 4. Simplify Calculating Roles = Roles can cost one, two, or more > > points per level, depending on the difficulty, status, and resources of >the > > role. Roll against Role for related skills, masking disturbance, and > > anything else. > > Sounds pretty much exactly like what we've already got, except >you'll be replacing the calculation with a table. tables *are* easy . . . you just look at them. D&D has done very well with tables. :) > > 5. Simplify Calculating Artifacts = Artifacts cost X points per > > level, depending on the power and rarity. Powers, damage, embedded >Songs, > > etc, are all based on the level of the artifact. > >Artifacts need a much more major overhaul than that, even. They need a >completely new approach, IMHO. What that approach is isn't exactly clear >to me yet, though. hrm . . . well, they are never as powerful as they are "supposed" to be. I mean, an ancient Mystic Knife cooled of the blood of a hound that killed a Demon that gives a +1 to the Small Weapon skill. whoo. That might work for D&D where a +1 is really nice, because leveling up is a long long away, but not in In Nomine (until you surpass the autosuccess limit, then that +1 to skill becomes +1 to CD => damage, which is very nice, given that the enemy has crap loads of hit points). > > 6. Simplify Calculating Vessel Stuff = (Vessel + CF x Strength = > > Hits) rule is too strange, come up with something that works but is more > > sensible and easier to learn. > >We use the Total Forces + Corporeal Forces + (Vessel x 5) from the GMG and >it works great. huh. 9+3+15 = 27. Hey, that is nice! I still say: Body Hits = Corporeal forces Vessel/1 (6pts) Vessel/2 (12pts) 1/2 damage taken Vessel/3 (18pts) 1/3 damage taken > > Ditch Charisma (why a part of Vessels?). > >Yup. Yup. Of course with the significant LACK of social stat in In Nomine . . . that means that everyone should probably have a rating in the skill: "social aptitude" > > 8. Ditch Servants. This kind of thing should be roleplayed and not > > quantified. > >Sure. I kinda like the idea of mystically enchanted servitude. After all, a servitor just means servant, so the PCs are all servants themselves. > > 9. Ditch Experience System for Celestials and Ethereals (just for > > mortals). Rewards are totally based on the amount of power your >Superior is > > willing to invest in you > >Hmm. I think GMs just need to be encouraged to give out miserly XP >rewards, and reserve the rest for what the Superior thinks of you, heh, I like this idea A LOT. There is *no* XP system in the European game, only Superior's awards. myself, >along with taking an active hand in what the PCs buy. I have had NO >problem with power inflation, myself. Neither have I, I just throw the PCs into situations that require good roleplaying to solve/survive, not raw might. > > 10. Angel and Demon-ness. All Celestials have the ability to >manifest > > their nature corporeally in a kind of Numinuous Corpus: Angel/Demon, > > providing the appropriate wings, claws, halos, glowing aura, surrounded >by > > flames, etc. Maybe an ability to Corporeally or Celestially manifest > > aspects of your Word. You only start out with basic abilities of > > Angel/Demon-Ness and have to raise it with points. > >That'd be neat, sure. That'd be neat? That'd KICK ASS! (Not to mention the fact that it would make sense, too.) Of course, this doesn't have to canon, but it could an option presented to the GM (innate Songs performed against a characteristic, perhaps costing Essence, perhaps not). > > 11. "Eden Ban." No moving between planes when not at a tether > > (increases their importance dramatically and explains why they even >exist in > > the first place), means that the remaining Ethereals fight like nothing >else > > to hold onto the ones they've got (though Ethereal tethers might form a >bit > > easier than Divine or Infernal ones?) > >I REALLY liked this idea, and I think it would fit IN much better than the >current rules. No celestial ever has to lose a Force in canon - they can >just zip up to their home. This fixes that. I have to totally agree. It makes Tethers have meaning, aside from handy meeting places, places to assault, or back up. I mean, if a Superior can just send his Angels/Demons where ever he wants, then a single successful invocation can destroy the PCs. :) Michael arrives with six Masters of War. Hey, an Archangel should have an entourage, no? > > 1. Include the Grigori > >Yes. An entire Grigori sourcebook (splatbook?) would be nice: a 8 page story, 5 pages on their secret abilities, 2 pages on Fallen Grigori, and then 5 pages of infamous Grigori. Maybe I can write it. Probably not, 'cause that's less than 32 pages. hrm, throw in all their old attunements and stuff or something. > > 2. Include all living Superiors (Khalid, Chris, Alaemon, etc.) > >Khalid, yes. The others... maybe a book of just minor Superiors. We need >to save SOME space, y'know. I agree. I'd include all the dead/forgotten Superiors for when the chracters are sent back in time (or when Kronos throws one *forward* in time to the present day). > > 3. Organize, Organize, Organize > >I trust Beth on this one. nod nod > > 4. New fiction that actually reflects the reality of the game > >No kidding. Hands up here, anyone who's had to explain to a player that >NO, their Mercurian can NOT do the things that Nicole did? *raise hand* >"Human germ!" -- Shrapnel (Decepticon), _Transformers: The Movie_ hee hee hee - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:34:05 +0000 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) >If you assume that God is good, then assume that Heaven is provided with >as much Essence as it needs to function, > >If you don't assume that, then you're already off into a variant ;) God is God. Simply that. God created celestials, he created humanity, he Created. To be honest he was pretty neutral in his creation. He did not stop the Fall, he did not stop the Purity Crusade. In IN the good and evil divide is between Heaven and Hell not God and antiGod. It is also about the decisions of humanity many of which could be considered good and bad at the same time. So no, I do not think I am off on a variant here. Ashley MIB 6660 What do you want? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:57:48 +0000 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) >Angels are selfless, demons are selfish. Angels fight to save human souls >because they care and because they don't want humans to get used and >abused by demons, not because it's good for their economy. OK, but other than potentially for Cherubim angels do not really care about humans, just about human souls. There is a great big difference between saving a human and saving a human soul. Any witch trial is a classic example of how little regard the church and by inference heaven have for human flesh and how much importance is placed on the soul. Simply put this is because by saving souls they prevent these souls going to hell and in so doing denies Essence to hell. Would it seem sensible for those souls who go to heven to simply play no further part whilst hell is stockpiling Essence. The war is about power, in many ways Essence is that power or at very least a major part. Unless Heaven and Hell are roughly equal one side would have won the war by now. I know it is possible to argue that Angels gain essense by a different means but as the number of souls in hell grows then so too must the power available to heaven. Selfish or selfless, Celestials are still attuned to the symphony, they are still made of the same stuff, a vessel for instance is a vessel whether made in Heaven or Hell. There is no reason therefore that if Angels or Heaven can gain essence dircetly from the symphony that Demons or Hell cannot and I cannot think of anything in the IN rules books that states otherwise. Hence there is nothing non canon about the inference that Heaven takes (or is given) essence from souls. And nothing selfish about taking essence to fight the war against hell. Just as Angels can give to fight, why not the blessed souls in Heaven? Ashley MIB 6660 What do you want? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 02:07:26 +0800 From: Manny Nepomuceno Subject: Re: IN> Leilani pt 1 At 10:58 AM 11/30/01 -0500, you wrote: >Hi Moe, > >I loved what you started with Leilani. Any chance of more about her and >her opposite number being written up? Please? Thanks either way. > >Jeffery Hey, So sorry. Life got in the way. Interesting that you thought Leilani was Moe's...;) Part II follows in a separate mail, including new Choir attunements for Ofanim and Cherubim. Thanks to Eric for pointing out the flaws in the earlier versions. Let me know if these are up to par. And yes, I'm quite aware (and mortified, frankly) that I sent Part I out without her dissonance conditions (!). In response to Michael's quibble (always welcome, incidentally), the archaic Mercurian of the Heavens and the Bright Lilim of the Heavens attunements are pretty much the same...but they're restricted anyway. I didn't think it would be that big a deal, considering that they boost resonances and that the Bright Lilim and the Mercurian resonances are, well, different. ;) And yes, I'm fond of the archaic attunements too. Thanks again and sorry for making you wait so long. Thanks, ;) Manny Nepomuceno http://www.geocities.com/angeloffools Q: How do you make God laugh? A: Make a plan. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2465 ********************************