Okay. I know that Vodun, or Voodoo, is in actuality an acceptable religion, and shouldn't be dissected, translated, and/or corrupted from a true understanding of its principles. I also know that Hollywood has been responsible for many misconceptions about Vodun, and that many practitioners of Vodun undergo a certain degree of intolerance simply because we do not take the time to come to understand Vodun in its proper light.
However, certain aspects of Vodun are more "mercenary" than some other religions, and are more concerned with "getting things Done!" than with worship per se. Thus, at least some of our misunderstandings and misconceptions stem from a fundamental philosophical/theological difference between the aims and goals of practitioners of other religions, and the aims and goals of some practitioners of Vodun.
Towards that end, I would like to present a system of Vodun, or Voodoo, that has been simplified (shudder) and translated into In Nomine terms. The system is presented as a creation of my own devising, stemming from collected works on Vodun, and is not meant to represent certain aspects of Vodun as strictly Diabolical in Nature.
It is not my intention to indicate that all Vodun practitioners are secretly devil-worshippers, power-hungry, or evil. Nor is it my intention to present certain of the voodoo spirits, or Loa, as strictly Evil in the "real world". However, in game terms, certain Loa fit so well into the Diabolical camp that it is easy to see how the rest of the world can come to see them as Evil, instead of just power-oriented. If there are any practitioners on this list who are offended by my translations, please feel free to correct me, chastise me, and try to bring the finished product "into line".
Yves' works in religion are spread across the whole of our planet, even to the darkest corners of Africa. Yves' African experiments developed into Voodoo. Voodoo, Vodun, or Sevi Lwa is a religion that is comes from the 18th Century African country of Dahomey. The name Voodoo derives from the African word for `spirit'. The central aspect of Voodoo is the communication of mortals with the extremely powerful spirits, known as the Loa. The Loa are all the servants of a greater and more powerful being, known as the "Gran Maitre". The Gran Maitre (God) is too remote for practical purposes, and thus the Voodoo practitioners attempt to gain attention of his servants, the Loa. If the Loa can be convinced, they will perform services for a devout practitioner, but will usually demand that a price be paid for their favor.
Voodoo, in its original form, was essentially, therefore, a worship of God and his Archangels. The Loa in question (the Rada Loa) were really just Archangels and Angels given the task of answering the specific ritual summonings, and perhaps guiding these devout worshippers in their quest for enlightenment. The Rada Loa tended, therefore, to perform only minor services, and not interfere with the development of mortal affairs in these regions to any great extent. Indeed, the archangels were under strict orders to keep their services minimal, and not to disrupt things too much.
However, Satan had other plans.
When African slaves were brought into Western colonies forcibly, they brought with them a great deal of hatred, anger, and negative energy. This collection of negative energy was a great power source for the Diabolicals at the time, and a plan was concocted to tap into this angry sub-culture. Thus, a second type of Loa evolved, to join the ranks of the first. These Loa, the Petro Loa, are more concerned with performing major favors, but of course they demand even more stringent prices for their services. These Loa, the dark Loa, are extremely powerful, far more powerful than the Rada Loa. As a consequence, many of the practitioners turned towards darker and more powerful ceremonies, centered on the Petro Loa, since the Petro Loa seemed to be able to "come through for the practitioners" when the Rada Loa would simply sit idly by and watch the slaves suffer.
Eventually, all Voodoo ceremonies began to be tainted by the newfound understanding that the Petro Loa would do the hard work, and the Rada Loa were the original, more benevolent, more gentle Loa. Certain practitioners of Voodoo turned their back on the Rada Loa completely, and devoted all of their efforts to the Petro Loa. Even the most benevolent practitioners still find it difficult not to turn their attention to the more powerful and attentive Petro Loa when the need arises. Thus, modern Voodoo, through Satan's influence, has developed into a battleground over which Celestials and Diabolicals battle for the attention of Voodoo practitioners. Unfortunately, however, the Diabolical's willingness to perform acts of vengeance in exchange for pledges of fidelity often results in even benevolent voodoo practitioners becoming stained with Diabolical overtones.
A voodoo priest (houngan) or priestess (mambo) will conduct the invocation of the Loa in one of two places. If they are attempting to invoke a Rada Loa, they will conduct the ceremony in a special building (hounfort) which is consecrated and dedicated to benevolent purposes. If they are attempting to invoke a Petro Loa, they will conduct the ceremony in an outside location, usually far away from prying eyes. All priests and priestesses are also Sorcerers (bokors), whether or not they choose to exercise their abilities. White houngans and mambos will merely study Black magic in an attempt to understand and combat evil in the world. They will not succumb to the temptation and become an actual Bokor. However, many practitioners of voodoo fall sway to the temptation to get favors from the Petro Loa, and thus they begin to practice black rituals, and become full Bokors.
The ritual involves the consecration of sacred food for the Loa to come and eat, as well as ritual patterns drawn in cornmeal. Offerings of food, liquor, and animal sacrifice are made, in an attempt to entice the Loa into coming in answer to the ritual. Different Loa seem to respond to different elements. Thus, each archangel/demon prince has different voodoo ceremonies that center around their invocation. There is much dancing, drumming, chanting, and general ecstatic fervor. If enough of a fervor is met, then the general subconscious outpouring of essence powers the ritual. The ritual then calls the attention of the Celestial/Diabolical in question, who will answer the call of the Voodoo practitioners.
When the Loa arrives, they will possess the body of one of the practitioners (the cheval, or "horse"). The possessed individual has no knowledge of what is done, or said, while the Loa is in possession of their body. It is through this possession that information is passed to the voodoo practitioners. When a Loa mounts the Horse, then the ritual has been completed. What the Loa chooses to do after that moment is up to the persuasiveness of the Houngan, the quality of the offerings, and the whim of the Loa!!!
The Rada Loa The Rada Loa are the original spirits worshipped in far away, long ago Africa, before the corruption of Western religion, slavery, and Satan's persuasive minions. The principle Rada Loa follow
Legba, Papa Legba, or Legba Ati-bon, is the most primary of the Loa. He is the one called upon in each and every ceremony, no matter what Loa is eventually to be summoned. He is the guardian of the different paths that one's life may take. He is the spirit of the Gate. He is depicted as a man sprinkling water, or perhaps as an old man walking with a crutch or a cane. The center post of every Hounfort is dedicated to Legba. Thus, rituals that are to involve the Petro Loa are not performed in the Hounfort, as this would displease Legba. He is the Loa who guides us through the maze of paths and turns, to find our eventual path. Thus, every ritual opens with homage to Legba, and a recognition that the ceremony will change one's path in the very near future. Without his agreement to "open the Gate", between the Corporeal Realm and the Spiritual Realm, no Loa will be able to come down and communicate. Yves has rooted this understanding so deeply in the subconscious of Voodoo mythology, in an attempt to further the mortals' understanding of Destiny. Thus, while he actually has two personas in Voodoo, they both go towards furthering understanding of Yves word here on Earth. Legba is symbolized by the Lion, and White Sheep. He is fed animal bones and marrow.
Damballah, or Damballah-Wedo, is the Great Serpent. He represents the ancestral knowledge of Voodoo, the pure faith. He is the sky-serpent, the wise and loving father. His main focus is on things that are pure, beautiful, and good. His color is white, and he is often symbolized by snake eggs. The ritual language of voodoo, which sounds much like a hissing snake, is derived from Damballah's own language. He responds to offers of pure white foods (cornmeal, olive oil, cake, champagne, white wine, milk, powdered sugar, eggs), and his ritual sacrifice is a pair of white chickens. Yves enjoys the attention he gets through his little experiment. He tries to explain to his devotee's that wisdom, knowledge, and understanding are the keys to happiness.
Aida-Wedo is personified as a short coiled snake that lives in water, and survives mostly by eating fruits, specifically bananas. Her symbol is the rainbow, and her invocation involves the use of a multitude of colors. She symbolizes natural powers, and offers the blessings of nature to her devotee's. Novalis started answering calls to Voodoo priests centuries ago. She adopted the persona of Aida-Wedo, and uses her influence to further the importance of agriculture, nature, and an understanding of the importance of growing things. This is why her snake symbol is always shown eating fruit, and never meat!!
Ogou, the Warrior, is summoned using the color Red. Ogou understands brute force, and the need to get things done through strength. Towards that end, invocations of Ogou involve the sacrifice of a Bull. While the Warrior will not fight for you, he will help you in your battle. He will not kill the mortals who are your enemies, but he will show you how to do the job yourself. There are many different aspects to Ogou, each one emphasizing different facets of his personality. However, they all come down to the same thing: symbols of strength, power, and conflict. His aspects include the military leader, the phallus, the sword, fire, lightning, and metal-work. Michael understands the more basic insights that his voodoo practitioners evince. He enjoys their simple, straight- forward quest for `getting the job done'. He knows that he is only called for in times of trouble, and when understanding of Conflict is needed. He doesn't mind... whenever he is called, it furthers the importance of his Word on Earth. His animosity for Yves, however, and his antithetical position towards Yves word, will make him less likely to attend to the needs of a Houngan who has recently invoked Damballah (Yves). Thus, Houngans must be careful that they not displease Ogou by overly-concentrating on Damballah's attention.
Also known as Agassou, Atisou is the Guardian Loa. He serves to protect places and people. He encourages his people to band together and protect one-another. He passes on knowledge of medicine, and healing, and attempts to make his devotee's stronger and more resilient.
David may not be overly fond of some of the other Loa, but he knows that people need protecting. Thus, his aspect as Loco Atisou emphasizes safety, usually the safety in numbers. He keeps places and people safe. There is, of course, a slight animosity between the Guardian (David) and the Warrior (Michael), but they each have their role to play.
Marc has adopted a female persona for the practitioners of Voodoo. However, this doesn't diminish the importance of his word to certain voodoo practitioners. Not every Voodoo practitioner is a hut-dwelling farmer. Some more modern voodoo worshippers will find themselves thrust into the world of high finance and business, and Ayizan is there to answer their calls for assistance. This is where Marc steps in. Ayizan is more than willing to make deals. It is uncanny, however, how Ayizan always seems to profit more than the other Loa through the deals he cuts with his voodoo practitioners.
Not every Loa is a benevolent helping spirit. Some of the spirits are more interested in doing the really nasty deeds themselves, in exchange for some serious pay back. These spirits began to be worshipped around the time that slavery introduced Voodoo to Western culture and Western slavers. The need for vengeance against their oppressors led some practitioners down the darker paths of Voodoo, and now there is a whole family of Loa who answer to the calls of those who wish to see something done right now!!!
Those who serve both types of Loa are known as "those who serve the Loa with both hands". Thus, this type of practice has been come to be known as Left-Hand Voodoo. They will ask the Petro Loa for special favors of a more malevolent nature, usually involving personal gain and power. Examples include the creation of Zombies, the calling of the dead to wreak vengeance for the living, the harming of another mortal through the use of Voodoo Dolls, and the creation of powerful Ouangas (talismans) that house Bakas (evil spirits) and contain great power!
It is obvious that it is the Petro Loa who are partners to the Bokor in his black magic rituals, in exchange for great sacrifice and service. The pact between the Loa and the mortal is called the Angajan. The Angajan, once entered, is notoriously difficult to get out of!!!
Often, practitioners who practice summoning the Petro Loa on a more-or- less exclusive basis will form secret societies, known as either Bizango, or Cochon Gris. These Bokors will practice shrouded in Red or White robes, so that their faces are hidden and unknown. These secret societies will use cannibalism and human sacrifice to further their dark purposes, much to the delight of the Petro Loa.
Also known as Kalfu and Maitre Carrefour, he is the patron of all Sorcery. Black rituals, in which a practitioner wishes to get a serious favor out of the Petro Loa, all open with an invocation to Maitre Carrefour. While some practitioners attempt to pretend that Carrefour is really just another aspect of Legba, they know deep down that while similarities between the two Loa are evident, there are differences as well. Kronos uses Carrefour as a means to emphasize the meeting of a practitioner's Fate. Usually, since the practitioner who is opening a ceremony by calling to Carrefour is already emphasizing the gathering of Power and Favors, it is easy for Kronos to step in and subtly guide the proceedings in a fashion that helps somebody meet their Fate. When one calls upon Carrefour in the opening of a Petro ceremony, one knows that one is tampering with a great and powerful being. This being is more than willing to nudge aspects of your life towards greatness, but it is often a greatness that comes with a price! Carrefour is the patron of sorcery, and the Petro equivalent to Legba. This is appropriate, as it was Kronos' job to oversee the development of the Petro Loa, and the ceremonies that would catch the attention of various demon princes in their Petro Loa personae.
Erzulie is the Loa you call upon when you want someone to fall in love with you, or you want to force somebody to stay in love with you, or you want vengeance for love betrayed! While Andrealphus may have adopted a female personae for the purposes of Voodoo, this was done with a purpose. Many practitioners of Voodoo do not realize that their calls to the patroness of Love are less than well-intentioned... but Andrealphus knows it! When we try to make somebody fall in love with us, we do not try to gain their love as a person, but rather as an object. We dehumanize the object of our affection, and turn them into "things" that we wish to possess. If you call upon Erzulie to make somebody fall in love with you, you have already dehumanized them to the point where any caring and true affection is beyond redemption. This possessive, jealous, vengeful love has Lust at its very heart, and so Andrealphus gladly accepts the calls for Erzulie's attention. As Erzulie, she encourages the Word of Lust every time somebody begs to have another mortal made to fall in love with them. Such love is tainted, foul, be-smirched, and ultimately pleasing to Andrealphus' plans.
Samedi is a popular Loa amongst the darker practitioners of Voodoo. When Samedi rides a horse, that horse tells lewd jokes, wears dark glasses, eats and drinks alcohol profusely, wears outrageous gaudy or shabby clothing (sometimes cross-dressing), and smokes cigars. Samedi loves to possess horses, because he then gets a chance to really enjoy the good things in life! Samedi's symbols are coffins and phalluses, and he is offered sacrifices of black goats and black chickens. He is the lord of the dead, and the ruler of the cemetery. It was Samedi who taught certain early Bokors the trick of making Zombies, but all Zombies are essentially under Samedi's thumb. He is a great one to call upon in an hour of need, but calling upon Samedi is often extremely dangerous, and ultimately perilous to one's soul!! It is the emphasis on death, the dead, and the use of dead mortals that has garnered a great bloc of power for Prince Saminga through the attentions of his Voodoo worshippers. Thus, Saminga, probably more than any other Prince, has profited by his involvement with Voodoo. His influence over the Left- Hand Voodoo has been incalculably extreme!!!
Guede' is another aspect of the dark side of Voodoo, who again emphasizes death, the graveyard, sexual debauchery and buffoonery. Guede' will always wear a tall black hat, and smoke cigars. He often opens up fresh graves and uses the dead souls for his service. He is jovial, and laughs quite a bit. It is his aim to show that Life and Death are part of a great Joke. His humor can be subtle, and filled with hidden meaning, or it can be simply Baudy and Disgusting. He has been known to use corpses and spirits in disturbing displays of the futility and meaninglessness of Life. His principle interest is to expose and reveal secrets. However, he will not do so directly. Instead, he taunts, teases, and cajoles the victim with his Hidden Knowledge. When he does finally deliver the punchline, his perceptions are often accurate and cruel. Guede' doesn't care, however: it's all too funny!
Dinclinsin is feared and revered for his great Severity. He is called upon only in times of great strife, to perform acts of vengeance of a direct and horrible nature. Dinclinsin is never called upon lightly, for one is never sure what price he may call upon for his services. The victims of Dinclinsin are notoriously mangled, burned, and horrific. Being a victim of Dinclinsin not only punishes the poor hapless mortal whose life has ended, but also sends a message of terror to all others near and dear to the victim. Dinclinsin is never subtle, never humorous, and never interested in anything other than the direct approach.
The Baka are really a series of Shedim who work for various Princes, and who will do small errands for their masters when called upon. They will possess a voodoo practitioner, and transform his body (using the Celestial Song of Forms) into a parody mixture between man and Beast. This Baka will then carry out the vengeance that has been requested by the voodoo practitioner. They may appear as leopard-men, serpent-men, or any other bizarre combination of man and beast. They are especially feared by voodoo practitioners, because they will often choose the same Horse and possess them again and again. The mortal Horse will then be taken out on nightly prowls, night after night, often killing many enemies of the Bokor before finally being killed themselves. The Loupe Garou', or werewolf, is a common form chosen by the Baka.
Thus, the realm of voodoo can be seen through the eyes of In Nomine. We can see how practitioners can summon only one type of Loa, or the other, or a combination of the two. Both Yves and Kronos are vitally important to Voodoo, as they represent the two primary guardians of the rituals. When performing a ritual, one takes one's destiny or fate into their own hands. Voodoo practitioners are generally interested in achieving things, and getting things done. Thus, they scurry quickly towards either their Fate or Destiny, depending upon which path they choose to follow more than the other.
However, it is important to note that the temptation to over-use and abuse power is often too overwhelming for most poor mortals. Thus, even the best practitioners, with the most noble hearts, have been corrupted by the ease-of-access that the Petro Loa represent. When they really need something to happen right away, even the most devout and pure practitioners may come to call upon the Petro Loa for a favor or two. Once they start down this path, they begin to further the words of Diabolicals, and begin to further their own destruction, as well!!
Okay, I've got two problems here.
First off, I'm a little useasy with the division you've made between Petro and Rada loa, particularly with the implication that some are 'good' and others 'evil'. The impression I've had is that all the loa are largely neutral bodies, with some inclination towards benevolence or 'violent emotion' in some cases.
[Bodhi]
You are absolutely correct. I guess my impression is that certain Loa are
concerned with helping out in small ways, with you doing most of the work,
while other Loa are concerned with doing major services for major fealty/sacrifice.
The Petro loa are far more concerned with "gettin' stuff DONE",
which I saw as falling more towards the diabolical's end. " Lettin'
things be" is more celestial in nature. We know that Diabolicals try
to alter the Symphony, while Celestials try to perceive the Symphony. Hence,
my division.
As to the chronology... yeah, I know I fudged it a bit. The petro Loa appeared later than the Rada loa, but some source seemed to indicate that the Petro Loa really came to prominence through times of strife, trials and tribulations.
My second problem is with some of the correlations you've made for the loa. I get an impression from reading your outline (and I could be wrong so easily) that these Princes/Archangels are almost 'masquerading' as loa, slipping on the Damballah costume and mask and going down to impress the locals. I think that does some disservice to both Voodoo and the Celestials involved.
Okay... They're not so much masquerading, as showing different facets of themselves. They're allowing a slightly different perception of themselves, and not bothering to correct it too much, simply because it serves their purposes. I guess I always thought that NO RELIGION had it correctly, but they'll happilly take the attention of any religious individual, so long as it furthers their Word without putting undue stress on the Symphony. Voodoo does that. It doesn't stress the Symphony, and with a little visitation now and then, they get their Word furthered.
Calling a celestial a 'loa' rather than an 'Archangel' is just terminology, and I think the celestials involved would take their roles pretty seriously (certainly the Archangels - the Princes might be more cynical). To have Yves as being two different loa is almost to have him lying to his followers. I'd personally cast Eli in the role of Damballah, with Yves as Legba.
Of course, this could very likely be my misinterpretation of what you're getting at. Feel free to call me names.
Nope, you're right. I think the celestials probably do take their roles pretty seriously, and so do the princes.
I've got a fairly NON-ANTHROPOMORPHIC vision of the Archangels. Oh, Sure, they act like "people" for the convenience of those below, but they're really a collection/conflomeration of powers, far outside the ken of mortal man. So, Yves IS Legba in a very real sense, and he is also Danballah... just different aspects of him.
What I'm curious on is how you see Voodoo being implemented in IN terms. Just a few thoughts of my own:
Most likely, the Archangels/Princes do not personally possess the invoker. Instead, they send a Kyriotate/Shedim to attend to it. Each 'higher loa' would have a group of Kyr/Sheds dedicated to Voodoo, probably not Word-bound, but with some degree of distinction. Possibly these servitors would have one or two special attunements to manage the situation appropriately. Thus, the Baka (above) are just a 'special squad' of Shedim, or possibly Shedim who have the Song of Forms available.
Yup, that's how I saw it. I saw Kyriotates and Shedim playing out the roles and wishes of their Superiors, but translating them into Voodoo terminology. Not every Kyriotate is going to be "taught" the proper ways to communicate witht his culture... only special, "distinctive" Kyriotates are going to be given these tasks.
Sorry... I re-read what I posted and I realize I didn't include that. You know, I always just assumed that mortals could never really get the FULL attention of Archangels/Princes, but that they send specially-instructed Kyriotates/Shedim to actually do the communicating for them.
This is the hard part, going by my arguments above. I'd suggest a certain uncomfortable level of cooperation between the 'higher loa', where they have to take responsibility for working with the servitors of the 'other side' upon occasion. For example, if a Bokor calls upon Ogou for help in murdering his enemies, Michael must (reluctantly) allow a Shedim to possess and assist the Bokor - that or allow one of his Kyriotates to do the dirty work. In all honesty, I don't like this idea, and any better ideas would be terrific.
Yeah... I tried to preface the discussion with acknowledgement that I'm uncomfortable relegating certain aspects to the EVIL side. I also recognize that the whole question of GOOD and EVIL is not really recognized through the Loa, but rather through one's actions there.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, you can talk to Loa, you can ask favours, but if the favours are extremely power-oriented or self-serving, you wind up doing "evil". Thus, Baron Samedi will gladly come and talk to you, even do you a couple of "non-evil" favours... but he's really hoping that you'll call him for something significant next time, and start your slide down the path.
Just talking to Samedi shouldn't mean that you are Evil. It does mean that you are dealing with an individual who is very interested in affecting GREAT CHANGE in the world at large... and in In Nomine terms this translates as a Diabolical. I know that many people on this list enjoyed the previous arguments as to whether or not Diabolicals are truly EVIL, or are simply interested in affecting change, regardless of what the "original plan" (God's will, indeed!...) called for. So, of course, Samedi doesn't see himself as Evil per se'... he just sees himself as willing to do big things... in exchange for big payment!
Quick Point: I mentioned that Bokor might not necessarily mean an individual who CHOOSES to do black magic...all Houngans are "potentially" Bokor, since they know the rules, regulations, and rituals. However, they choose not to deal with the Left Hand.
Just in passing, while I have no books on Voodoo available in the house right now, I might suggest that interested parties check out GURPS Voodoo, which I'm told has some very good stuff in it. Also try out the Tim Powers novel 'On Stranger Tides', or the Micheal Scott Rohan novel 'Chase the Morning'. Both decent and intelligent novels.
On Stranger Tides I know... I really like his stuff!! I DIDN'T know that there was a GURPS suppliment. Doh!!
And, Patrick... you should know by now that I appreciate all your comments and concerns. I'm not completely comfortable with this system, so keep the critique coming!! I was happy to see your name on the tag! (same to you, Ms. McCoy, if you're reading this)
As to the more complimentary aspects of your post ("complete Dude?"...), I enjoy doing this sort of stuff. So long as people keep writing back and telling me that it is useful, I'll keep coming up with things to follow.
Walk in Beauty,
Rob Wolff / Bodhi
rob@v-wave.com
Nicholas Copernicus, Master Astronomer
Stood up and Shouted, addressing the throng,
"Abandon poor Ptolomy, Stand up and follow me,
Heliocentrically, Ptolomy's Wrong!!"
From: "Patrick O'Duffy" (redfern@thehub.com.au)
Subject: Re: IN) Voodoo Rules
Bodhi wrote:
You are absolutely correct. I guess my impression is that certain Loa are concerned with helping out in small ways, with you doing most of the work, while other Loa are concerned with doing major services for major fealty/sacrifice. The Petro loa are far more concerned with "gettin' stuff DONE", which I saw as falling more towards the diabolical's end. " Lettin' things be" is more celestial in nature. We know that Diabolicals try to alter the Symphony, while Celestials try to perceive the Symphony. Hence, my division.
[Patrick O'Duffy:]
Hmmm... yeah, I see your point. I'm a little uncomfortable with the active/passive
distiction between Heaven/Hell, but that's simply personal preference.
Okay... They're not so much masquerading, as showing different facets of themselves. They're allowing a slightly different perception of themselves, and not bothering to correct it too much, simply because it serves their purposes. I guess I always thought that NO RELIGION had it correctly, but they'll happilly take the attention of any religious individual, so long as it furthers their Word without putting undue stress on the Symphony. Voodoo does that. It doesn't stress the Symphony, and with a little visitation now and then, they get their Word furthered.
Yeah, I agree with that. It's just that the Archangels and Princes in the rulebook don't fit that neatly into the descriptions of the Loa, and I got the impression from what I read (and bear in mind I was sleepy and kinda hungover) that you considered the loa to be human labels or ideas, into which the Celestials have put themselves, rather than vice versa. My mistake, most likely.
I think the celestials probably do take their roles pretty seriously, and so do the princes.
I've got a fairly NON-ANTHROPOMORPHIC vision of the Archangels. Oh, Sure, they act like "people" for the convenience of those below, but they're really a collection/conflomeration of powers, far outside the ken of mortal man. So, Yves IS Legba in a very real sense, and he is also Danballah... just different aspects of him.
I actually like the idea of the celestials being fairly anthropomorphic, notwithstanding some different processes for different forms. Both celestials and humans are made in God's image, and while they may be another layer of complication above humans, at the core they're still people, sorta. Archangels/Princes are a level again, but I like the idea of everyone being coprehensible to a certain degree. Maybe that's just my reaction of trying to play really non-human NPCs in my last few campaigns.
Yup, that's how I saw it. I saw Kyriotates and Shedim playing out the roles and wishes of their Superiors, but translating them into Voodoo terminology. Not every Kyriotate is going to be "taught" the proper ways to communicate witht his culture... only special, "distinctive" Kyriotates are going to be given these tasks.
Sorry... I re-read what I posted and I realize I didn't include that. You know, I always just assumed that mortals could never really get the FULL attention of Archangels/Princes, but that they send specially-instructed Kyriotates/Shedim to actually do the communicating for them.
Yeah, same here. You could have other servitors with the Song of Possession, but why would the Superior waste time teaching a subordinate the skills they need when they can get servitors with those skills built in?
Yeah... I tried to preface the discussion with acknowledgement that I'm uncomfortable relegating certain aspects to the EVIL side. I also recognize that the whole question of GOOD and EVIL is not really recognized through the Loa, but rather through one's actions there.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, you can talk to Loa, you can ask favours, but if the favours are extremely power-oriented or self-serving, you wind up doing "evil". Thus, Baron Samedi will gladly come and talk to you, even do you a couple of "non-evil" favours... but he's really hoping that you'll call him for something significant next time, and start your slide down the path.
Okay, I dig that. I have more of a problem with Bokors calling upon the 'good' loa to perform acts of dubious nature.
Just talking to Samedi shouldn't mean that you are Evil. It does mean that you are dealing with an individual who is very interested in affecting GREAT CHANGE in the world at large... and in In Nomine terms this translates as a Diabolical.
Or the Archangel Janus. Again, I dislike the passive Heaven concept.
I know that many people on this list enjoyed the previous arguments as to whether or not Diabolicals are truly EVIL, or are simply interested in affecting change, regardless of what the "original plan" (God's will, indeed!...) called for. So, of course, Samedi doesn't see himself as Evil per se'... he just sees himself as willing to do big things... in exchange for big payment!
Umm... I don't grok that argument. Heaven is Good. Hell is Evil. End of story. Any grey or dubious area is the provision of Humanity, but celestials are one or the other (Outcasts and Renegades have some major self-image problems). I quite prefer to have absolutes in this game - I can do grey areas in a World of Darkness game.
Sure, what constitutes Good and Evil (or even good and evil, small version) are open to debate - but Heaven are the Good Guys, Hell are the Bad Guys, and anytime they seem to stray from that distinction, then it is only a 'seeming', not the truth.
That's my take, anyway. Sorry to go off on a tangent.
Quick Point: I mentioned that Bokor might not necessarily mean an individual who CHOOSES to do black magic...all Houngans are "potentially" Bokor, since they know the rules, regulations, and rituals. However, they choose not to deal with the Left Hand.
Fair enough.
On Stranger Tides I know... I really like his stuff!! I DIDN'T know that there was a GURPS suppliment. Doh!!
Haven't read it myself, but heard it was good. Written by C.J. Carella.
And, Patrick... you should know by now that I appreciate all your comments and concerns. I'm not completely comfortable with this system, so keep the critique coming!! I was happy to see your name on the tag! (same to you, Ms. McCoy, if you're reading this)
As to the more complimentary aspects of your post ("complete Dude?"...), I enjoy doing this sort of stuff. So long as people keep writing back and telling me that it is useful, I'll keep coming up with things to follow.
Hey, it never hurts to let someone know if you appreciate what they do. There should be more of it.
Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia
I told the priest, don't count on any second coming
God got his ass kicked the first time he came down here slumming
He had the balls to come, the gall to die and then forgive us
No I don't wonder why, I wonder what He thought that'd get us
ANDY PRIEBOY, "Tomorrow Wendy"
From: "Bodhi" (rob@v-wave.com)
Subject: Re: IN) Voodoo Rules
[Written by emccoy]
It might depend on if the enemies in question are people Michael would like toasted anyway. If not, then you factor in how much Michael wants to try to keep this Bokor out of The Opposition's influence. I suspect that if he (or his proxy Kyrio) doesn't take the Bokor up on the "offer," possessing him quickly with a stable Kyrio, then a Shedim will move in.
It's annoying, but if the angels didn't help out occasionally, then the demons would get all these people easily, right?
[Bodhi]
Well, the way I see it, various voodoo practitioners will ask for
favours, and offer up "something" in exchange. If one side won't
answer my calls, then the other side will, right? More to the point, the
Petro loa have a tendency to agree to do those "big jobs" that
the Rada loa always seem reluctant to agree to. Now, neither side is claiming
to be Good or Evil, but the further and further you get into debt with the
Petro loa, the more favours you'll feel comfortable in asking. Suddenly,
you've lost your moral metre-stick, and you wind up begging that Petro loa
to kill your enemy, or secure that young wench's love, or what have you.
That's when the Petro loa have you! Furthermore, since the Petro loa, who are really just a bunch of Diabolicals seen through a different cultural template, have caused you to lose your moral perspective to this degree, they are more or less assured that when you die, you're going to Hell.
As a Rada loa, I would try to persuade my practitioners to keep the favours small, and keep up the "good" work. Do nice things to one another, because when you do bad stuff, it comes around and bites you! I'd do small stuff, but mostly I'd try to get the practitioners to do the majority of the leg-work themselves. The Rada loa are advisory, instructional, and moral. The Petro loa are more direct Movers and Shakers.
This works the same way in the magic-systems of the Dene' tribe I'm familiar with. The elders explain to me that when one does white magic, you have good things happen to you. When one does black magic, it comes around to haunt you. Most people do a combination of the two, but SOME people eventually begin doing so much black magic that they forget the suffering they are causing, and merely focus on the gains.
If a houngan eventually begins asking enough favours that he makes that leap towards being a true Bokor, then he has lost the ability to discriminate between a "little favour, which might be a little bad, and which I'll probably make up for later on with an equally Good thing...", and a "favour that I want right NOW!!". This guy's going to Hell!
Thus, my job as a Rada loa is to do the little favours, and couple them with a life-lesson about the value of doing Good. If a houngan doesn't pick up on the lesson, he's in danger of "needing" bigger favours, which I'm not morally comfortable granting, and suddenly he's asking the other side for so much that they've effectively converted him.
Thus, not all Rada loa favours are "passive", but they tend to be more instructional than directly influential. The Petro loa, on the other hand, are more than willing to do something MAJOR for you, with NO sense of being subtle, because they know that you'll get hooked on the "Easy Answers" that they offer to Life's problems.
Walk in Beauty,
Rob Wolff / Bodhi
rob@v-wave.com
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